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what motor to put in a C5Z, track only, HPDE car

 
Old 11-14-2016, 07:39 AM
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Default what motor to put in a C5Z, track only, HPDE car

So the motor blows in your track only, HPDE car, do you replace it with another LS6 or something else?

do you need to go to a dry sump?

Do you go to a forged motor?

where do you get said motor if you are not an engine builder? open to thoughts as I sort thorough the options, pros, cons.


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Old 11-14-2016, 07:55 AM
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How bad is it "blown"?

Build a forged LS1 block and put the LS6 stuff on it.

Stock crank, forged rods and pistons.

Looking at your car and the grip levels it would be capable of, I would look at a dry sump.

Schwanke race engines or CNC Motorsports are good sources for engines....among others.

Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 11-14-2016 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 11-14-2016, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FASTFATBOY View Post
How bad is it "blown"?

Build a forged LS1 block and put the LS6 stuff on it.

Stock crank, forged rods and pistons.

Looking at your car and the grip levels it would be capable of, I would look at a dry sump.

Schwanke race engines or CNC Motorsports are good sources for engines....among others.
Thanks for input. Don't know the "how bad" yet. got home last night at midnight. car still in trailer. suspect block has a hole by the starter.
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Old 11-14-2016, 09:58 AM
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Remember that your "class" has a lot to do with your block choices as well. and if your in a Z06 class sometimes this will differ in some groups from the base C5 classes. If you forge a motor make sure that you will stay in your class requirements. and that your power output from say using a Ls1 vs an LS6 will be correct to your class and not put you at a disadvantage. While you got the heads off, etc port, polish etc and you can also carve out some of the intake manifold polishing as well while your at it over the winter.
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Zenak View Post
Remember that your "class" has a lot to do with your block choices as well. and if your in a Z06 class sometimes this will differ in some groups from the base C5 classes. If you forge a motor make sure that you will stay in your class requirements. and that your power output from say using a Ls1 vs an LS6 will be correct to your class and not put you at a disadvantage. While you got the heads off, etc port, polish etc and you can also carve out some of the intake manifold polishing as well while your at it over the winter.
Heads and intakes haven't been "polished" in upwards of 15 years, surfaces are left rough to form a boundary layer of air to increase flow.
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Zenak View Post
Remember that your "class" has a lot to do with your block choices as well. and if your in a Z06 class sometimes this will differ in some groups from the base C5 classes. If you forge a motor make sure that you will stay in your class requirements. and that your power output from say using a Ls1 vs an LS6 will be correct to your class and not put you at a disadvantage. While you got the heads off, etc port, polish etc and you can also carve out some of the intake manifold polishing as well while your at it over the winter.
thanks - not going to race it, just DE
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:52 AM
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I went with a Texas Speed LS2 402 block and reused my LS6 pnp heads. I kept it wet sump, but did suffer a couple of rebuilds due to oil starvation. So thinking dry sump could save you money down the road. If you remember World Challenge during the C5 era, nobody but nobody could get more than 3 weekends with a wet sump motor. All the fast and durable cars had a good dry sump system installed.
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Old 11-14-2016, 02:16 PM
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Since your not currently running it in a class do you plan to do so? If so what are the rules?

If you don't care about that part of it, then I would figure what is budget and power goals?

If you are a good driver and the car is on slicks, I would do a dry sump system and a good one at that. Power wise, good tires and full aero it doesn't have to make 1000 hp but 450-550 hp typically makes a very fun track car that doesn't' require a lot of maintenance work, nor is it that expensive to build.
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Old 11-14-2016, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Anthony @ LGMotorsports View Post
Since your not currently running it in a class do you plan to do so? If so what are the rules?

If you don't care about that part of it, then I would figure what is budget and power goals?

If you are a good driver and the car is on slicks, I would do a dry sump system and a good one at that. Power wise, good tires and full aero it doesn't have to make 1000 hp but 450-550 hp typically makes a very fun track car that doesn't' require a lot of maintenance work, nor is it that expensive to build.
A stock LS6 with headers, no cats, Xpipe, intake and tune typically makes about 440hp and 385-390whp.

I am in the process of doing a stock build for durability, but it may pick up some power due to better components. I am at about $3,000 for a complete engine that I will assemble.

Square deck block
Bore and hone with plates
Work heads and mill
Forged pistons
Forged Scat I beam rods
Balance
Bearings, gaskets blah blah blah.

I would recommend you stay away from high pressure or high volume oil pumps, they cause problems in a wet sump. A stock ported pump is all most would need.

You can get a forged shortblock for about $3600 but you have to pay to ship it and you might need a core to send them.
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Old 11-14-2016, 03:00 PM
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LS3 is gonna cost ya the same as an LS6. the extra cubes will pay off. and the LS3 has alot more tuning options than the old gen LS6.

check out Texas-Speed. they have some of the best short/long blocks and reputation.
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Old 11-14-2016, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by STANG KILLA SS View Post
LS3 is gonna cost ya the same as an LS6. the extra cubes will pay off. and the LS3 has alot more tuning options than the old gen LS6.

check out Texas-Speed. they have some of the best short/long blocks and reputation.
LS1/6 has a better life expectancy on track than a LS2/3 for whatever reason the oiling seems to be different, stronger...whatever it may be. Oil pan maybe, don't know.

Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 11-14-2016 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 11-14-2016, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Anthony @ LGMotorsports View Post
Since your not currently running it in a class do you plan to do so? If so what are the rules?

If you don't care about that part of it, then I would figure what is budget and power goals?

If you are a good driver and the car is on slicks, I would do a dry sump system and a good one at that. Power wise, good tires and full aero it doesn't have to make 1000 hp but 450-550 hp typically makes a very fun track car that doesn't' require a lot of maintenance work, nor is it that expensive to build.
Anthony - this is the car that Adam is talking to you about. I'm not going to run it in class. just HPDE/open track days. agreed 450-500 whp would be great. goal is more reliable power.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cre8fun View Post
Anthony - this is the car that Adam is talking to you about. I'm not going to run it in class. just HPDE/open track days. agreed 450-500 whp would be great. goal is more reliable power.
What I thought, he and I talked a bit this morning about it. Working on some options for you now.
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:52 PM
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I say LS3 crate motor, 525hp version and ARE dry sump using internal stock pump for pressure. You will need a few harness adapters and a Lingenfelter crank trigger due to different reluctor but this a good value.
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Old 11-14-2016, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hi Volts Z06 View Post
I say LS3 crate motor, 525hp version and ARE dry sump using internal stock pump for pressure. You will need a few harness adapters and a Lingenfelter crank trigger due to different reluctor but this a good value.
$10,000 plus labor?
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:13 PM
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More like $7k plus labor
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Hi Volts Z06 View Post
More like $7k plus labor
Cheapest I've seen the 525hp version is about $8k. Then you have to ship it.

Don't you need adapters and such for the ECM?

ECM tune is $500

Will the LS6 headers/ex work?

Will the batwing pan bolt to it?

Will the Ls6 clutch work?

Curious

Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 11-14-2016 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 11-15-2016, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Hi Volts Z06 View Post
I say LS3 crate motor, 525hp version and ARE dry sump using internal stock pump for pressure. You will need a few harness adapters and a Lingenfelter crank trigger due to different reluctor but this a good value.
I had this configuration until I wiped a cam lobe. It put down 487 WHP and about 480 lb-ft of torque with an ARE 4-stage dry sump and Pfadt headers. I bought mine from Jegs for $7500 and they had free shipping & no core charge.

I'm also in the market for a new engine so I'll be following this thread.

Jim
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jlutherva View Post
I had this configuration until I wiped a cam lobe. It put down 487 WHP and about 480 lb-ft of torque with an ARE 4-stage dry sump and Pfadt headers. I bought mine from Jegs for $7500 and they had free shipping & no core charge.

I'm also in the market for a new engine so I'll be following this thread.

Jim
So do you know what caused the failure? would it have been different if you had a Dailey dry sump? or was it a fluke issue with the valve train metallurgy?
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:31 AM
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To summarize a bit of the input I got yesterday - granted, I won't run the car in a class, so I'm governed by my desire not a set of rules. what I want is a reliable DE car and hell, who does not want more power.

option 1 - go back with a refreshed or rebuilt LS6 wet sump. pros are that it will plug and play with my car and components (headers, etc). my understanding is that in stock form they should be capable of putting down 385 WHP and spinning 6900 reliably. limitation, wet sump gets in trouble around 1.5 G in long sweepers. easy to debate that limit and whether that can be helped with an accusump.

Option 2 - go to an LS3 or Gen 4 motors. Pros - more cubic inches, so more power. and if I choose to use 5th gear (very tall), which I do, there will be more power in the 4k range when I shift 4 to 5 when compared to the LS6. cons - oiling system is a little more suspect, so dry sump becomes more mandatory. need to use a converter box due to the different reluctor wheel (unless you change cranks). And this route is a lot more expensive,

more than one source has said the Dailey dry sump is the most respected and I've seen quotes from 3500-4700 just for the components, then 1-2K for lines plus install. so that's not a cheap box to check.
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