engine stamping etiquette
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
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engine stamping etiquette
If you were restoring a very valuable and well documented car....
A. Would you re-stamp a correctly dated and cast block, or leave it blank?
B. If you did re-stamp it and it was a great job, what do you tell people (without lying) when they ask if it was original.
C. How do you handle a restamped block at NCRS events. How are Stamped Blocks handled at NCRS events. If you are going to be judged, do you just keep your mouth shut, or what?
JUST CURIOUS?
A. Would you re-stamp a correctly dated and cast block, or leave it blank?
B. If you did re-stamp it and it was a great job, what do you tell people (without lying) when they ask if it was original.
C. How do you handle a restamped block at NCRS events. How are Stamped Blocks handled at NCRS events. If you are going to be judged, do you just keep your mouth shut, or what?
JUST CURIOUS?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,117
Likes: 19
From: Portlandia Oregon
Documents or no documents, if the original engine is gone, then it is a non original motor and should be represented as one. I see nothing wrong with putting a correct replacement engine back, but trying to represent it as original is wrong. If the car is restamped, then someting in the future, it will be represented as an original engine. I would replace the engine and leave the pad blank, you can still top flight with an incorrect pad.
Other with more knowledge will most certainly have more to say on the topic.
It is one the ignites much debate.
oWEN
Other with more knowledge will most certainly have more to say on the topic.
It is one the ignites much debate.
oWEN
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,913
Likes: 283
If you were restoring a very valuable and well documented car....
I take it you are talking about finding a block to replace the un-serviceable or missing original block.
A. Would you re-stamp a correctly dated and cast block, or leave it blank?
I would stamp it with the the date of the engine re-build, and the suffix of the options for that motor, and that is it.
B. If you did re-stamp it and it was a great job, what do you tell people (without lying) when they ask if it was original.
Tell them that it is a NOM (NON ORIGINAL MOTOR) that has been re-stamped to replicate the original motor.
C. How do you handle a restamped block at NCRS events? How are Stamped Blocks handled at NCRS events. If you are going to be judged, do you just keep your mouth shut, or what?
This answer should be obvious, from what we learned in Sunday school when we were 4. TELL THE TRUTH.
I wish there was a protocol for proving, notarizing, documenting an original stamp pad, then having it re-stamped as it was prior to decking. This way the original motor, could be decked and stamped if needed. I am re-building my original motor, and if needed, wish something like this was offered.
Mark
I take it you are talking about finding a block to replace the un-serviceable or missing original block.
A. Would you re-stamp a correctly dated and cast block, or leave it blank?
I would stamp it with the the date of the engine re-build, and the suffix of the options for that motor, and that is it.
B. If you did re-stamp it and it was a great job, what do you tell people (without lying) when they ask if it was original.
Tell them that it is a NOM (NON ORIGINAL MOTOR) that has been re-stamped to replicate the original motor.
C. How do you handle a restamped block at NCRS events? How are Stamped Blocks handled at NCRS events. If you are going to be judged, do you just keep your mouth shut, or what?
This answer should be obvious, from what we learned in Sunday school when we were 4. TELL THE TRUTH.
I wish there was a protocol for proving, notarizing, documenting an original stamp pad, then having it re-stamped as it was prior to decking. This way the original motor, could be decked and stamped if needed. I am re-building my original motor, and if needed, wish something like this was offered.
Mark
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,182
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From: going faster miles an hour...with the radio on in browns mills new jersey
A. I would never attempt to pass off a cloned motor as the original. That would preclude restamping.
B. & C. Would then not apply.
B. & C. Would then not apply.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,257
Likes: 6
From: Mission Viejo California
Originally Posted by livin
C. How do you handle a restamped block at NCRS events. How are Stamped Blocks handled at NCRS events. If you are going to be judged, do you just keep your mouth shut, or what?
From what I have learned about NCRS judging, (and yes Chuck G, I am beginning to rethink my approach
) here are some bullet points.- The block stamping is worth up to 88 points.
- Like other aspects of the car, the NCRS is looking for a condition that represents the state as it left the factory (or as delivered).
- The NCRS guys state that they do not guarantee "originality" only that they judge the appearance of originality.
So, for Judging you might want to be quiet because like any other aspect of the car, why would you want to point out a flaw for the judge to see and possibly deduct you for?
--For example, would you purposely say, "I know this looks like lacquer paint but it's really urethane base-coat/clear-coat", knowing that you could possibly lose all your paint points?
But for Selling then I agree you ought to tell the truth.
I think this way at this time because Judging is a hobby game where you're presenting a restoration (or re-creation) and you're being judged on how good a job you did getting the car back to the as delivered state.
If someone says you're cheating by not pointing out the flaw then you're only cheating yourself.
But Selling has moral and legal implications. You're cheating another person. In my book that's never cool.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 10,866
Likes: 717
From: Beverly Hills/Pine Ridge Florida
Originally Posted by Seaside63
From what I have learned about NCRS judging, (and yes Chuck G, I am beginning to rethink my approach ) here are some bullet points.
So, for Judging you might want to be quiet because like any other aspect of the car, why would you want to point out a flaw for the judge to see and possibly deduct you for?
--For example, would you purposely say, "I know this looks like lacquer paint but it's really urethane base-coat/clear-coat", knowing that you could possibly lose all your paint points?
But for Selling then I agree you ought to tell the truth.
I think this way at this time because Judging is a hobby game where you're presenting a restoration (or re-creation) and you're being judged on how good a job you did getting the car back to the as delivered state.
If someone says you're cheating by not pointing out the flaw then you're only cheating yourself.
But Selling has moral and legal implications. You're cheating another person. In my book that's never cool.
) here are some bullet points.- The block stamping is worth up to 88 points.
- Like other aspects of the car, the NCRS is looking for a condition that represents the state as it left the factory (or as delivered).
- The NCRS guys state that they do not guarantee "originality" only that they judge the appearance of originality.
So, for Judging you might want to be quiet because like any other aspect of the car, why would you want to point out a flaw for the judge to see and possibly deduct you for?
--For example, would you purposely say, "I know this looks like lacquer paint but it's really urethane base-coat/clear-coat", knowing that you could possibly lose all your paint points?
But for Selling then I agree you ought to tell the truth.
I think this way at this time because Judging is a hobby game where you're presenting a restoration (or re-creation) and you're being judged on how good a job you did getting the car back to the as delivered state.
If someone says you're cheating by not pointing out the flaw then you're only cheating yourself.
But Selling has moral and legal implications. You're cheating another person. In my book that's never cool.
You've SEEN THE LIGHT. NCRS judges the appearance of originality, in all aspects of the car, not just the engine. You've got interior, exterior, and chassis too.
NCRS never has "guaranteed originality" or certified any cars. Chuck
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
From: Minden NV
After reading all this, I wonder why searching for correctly dated replacement manifolds, carburetors, radiators, and even brand new reproduction dated windows, windshields and mirrors all seems to be ok. Why is this engine block stamping not the same as this? What am I missing?
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,414
Likes: 763
From: Barrington IL
Originally Posted by Lynn Mobley
After reading all this, I wonder why searching for correctly dated replacement manifolds, carburetors, radiators, and even brand new reproduction dated windows, windshields and mirrors all seems to be ok. Why is this engine block stamping not the same as this? What am I missing?
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Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 116
From: AUSTIN Tx
Seaside63,
That has been my thought process as well. Why on earth would someone participate in flight judging, and leave those points on the table? I also, can not see the difference between hunting down the correct alternator, carb, wipers, glass, ect, ect ,ect, and restoring the stampad to it's original configuration. As long as there are points associated with the pad, people will make every effort to make a restored pad that will pass judging scrutiny.
Regards, John McGraw
That has been my thought process as well. Why on earth would someone participate in flight judging, and leave those points on the table? I also, can not see the difference between hunting down the correct alternator, carb, wipers, glass, ect, ect ,ect, and restoring the stampad to it's original configuration. As long as there are points associated with the pad, people will make every effort to make a restored pad that will pass judging scrutiny.
Regards, John McGraw
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,078
Likes: 101
From: Riverhead New York
What's Original?
Years ago, (45), as a young lad I was rebuilding a Model "A" Ford pickup. We always looked for "Ford" script parts to replace worn or missing items. Not to fool anyone about originality but only because that was the way Henry built it! Same should be the rule for "true" hobbiests. Zora liked them"as built"! So do I. Al W. 
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,246
Likes: 21
From: Going too fast over the hill. Iowa
I'd tell tourists and judges it's an original 61, 57, or 67 engine (whatever) and let them figure it out. That doesn't mean it's THE original engine that came from the factory in your car. It is an original Chevy engine. Even NCRS allows resto engines. It only has to appear original. Otherwise what's the point of Corvette restoration. The seat and door vinyl, the paint, the tires, the battery - none of that is normally original to the car. The engine is just another assembly. On a SURVIVOR(R) it may be, but IMO a lot of that is faked.
IMO if you are selling the car, you should tell the prospective buyer.
PS Zora had COPO and factory modified cars. Call it your own COPO car.
IMO if you are selling the car, you should tell the prospective buyer.
PS Zora had COPO and factory modified cars. Call it your own COPO car.
Last edited by magicv8; Dec 21, 2005 at 10:01 PM.
Instructor
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Lexington KY
Originally Posted by livin
If you were restoring a very valuable and well documented car....
A. Would you re-stamp a correctly dated and cast block, or leave it blank?
B. If you did re-stamp it and it was a great job, what do you tell people (without lying) when they ask if it was original.
C. How do you handle a restamped block at NCRS events. How are Stamped Blocks handled at NCRS events. If you are going to be judged, do you just keep your mouth shut, or what?
JUST CURIOUS?
A. Would you re-stamp a correctly dated and cast block, or leave it blank?
B. If you did re-stamp it and it was a great job, what do you tell people (without lying) when they ask if it was original.
C. How do you handle a restamped block at NCRS events. How are Stamped Blocks handled at NCRS events. If you are going to be judged, do you just keep your mouth shut, or what?
JUST CURIOUS?
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,982
Likes: 6,209
From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
Originally Posted by Seaside63
So, for Judging you might want to be quiet because like any other aspect of the car, why would you want to point out a flaw for the judge to see and possibly deduct you for?
--For example, would you purposely say, "I know this looks like lacquer paint but it's really urethane base-coat/clear-coat", knowing that you could possibly lose all your paint points?
But for Selling then I agree you ought to tell the truth.
I think this way at this time because Judging is a hobby game where you're presenting a restoration (or re-creation) and you're being judged on how good a job you did getting the car back to the as delivered state.
If someone says you're cheating by not pointing out the flaw then you're only cheating yourself.
But Selling has moral and legal implications. You're cheating another person. In my book that's never cool.
--For example, would you purposely say, "I know this looks like lacquer paint but it's really urethane base-coat/clear-coat", knowing that you could possibly lose all your paint points?
But for Selling then I agree you ought to tell the truth.
I think this way at this time because Judging is a hobby game where you're presenting a restoration (or re-creation) and you're being judged on how good a job you did getting the car back to the as delivered state.
If someone says you're cheating by not pointing out the flaw then you're only cheating yourself.
But Selling has moral and legal implications. You're cheating another person. In my book that's never cool.
Maybe I've worked too much white collar crime, but obtaining a Top Flight while knowing it's not original is obtaining the certification through fraudulent means. Most people who don't engage in Clintonesque double-speak would in fact call that "cheating."
And before you continue your self-serving, "cheating is OK" justifications, remember that you are actually obtaining a certification which WITHOUT QUESTION increases the value of the car, meaning there is actually a monetary value on what you are cheating for. So save the "it's only points" BS.
Cherry-picking what has "moral and legal implications" is always convenient.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,257
Likes: 6
From: Mission Viejo California
Originally Posted by Lynn Mobley
After reading all this, I wonder why searching for correctly dated replacement manifolds, carburetors, radiators, and even brand new reproduction dated windows, windshields and mirrors all seems to be ok.
Why is this engine block stamping not the same as this? What am I missing?
Why is this engine block stamping not the same as this? What am I missing?
1) You find a 1967 Corvette body "tub" in a field with its front and rear body sections gone, no glass or interior, just the tub -- with a good vin and trim tag.
Alongside that tub is the original engine, with perfectly legible stamp pad and casting numbers. But it's only the block.
You take it home and build an entire car around it.
2) You find a perfect complete car with ALL its original parts in preserved splendour including impeccable documentation. You even uncover owner history and some old color snapshots in the glove box.
But, sadly, its engine block is missing. Only the block.
You take this car home and replace the missing engine with a fully restored, blueprinted engine with an undectable restamped pad.
WHICH IF THE TWO CARS IS MORE GENUINE?
Live Free or Die
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 7,943
Likes: 27
From: One thing is for sure this kind of discourse and BS would not be tolerated on the NCRS forum. Ohio
Originally Posted by Seaside63
Think of these two scenarios...
1) You find a 1967 Corvette body "tub" in a field with its front and rear body sections gone, no glass or interior, just the tub -- with a good vin and trim tag.
Alongside that tub is the original engine, with perfectly legible stamp pad and casting numbers. But it's only the block.
You take it home and build an entire car around it.
2) You find a perfect complete car with ALL its original parts in preserved splendour including impeccable documentation. You even uncover owner history and some old color snapshots in the glove box.
But, sadly, its engine block is missing. Only the block.
You take this car home and replace the missing engine with a fully restored, blueprinted engine with an undectable restamped pad.
WHICH IF THE TWO CARS IS MORE GENUINE?
1) You find a 1967 Corvette body "tub" in a field with its front and rear body sections gone, no glass or interior, just the tub -- with a good vin and trim tag.
Alongside that tub is the original engine, with perfectly legible stamp pad and casting numbers. But it's only the block.
You take it home and build an entire car around it.
2) You find a perfect complete car with ALL its original parts in preserved splendour including impeccable documentation. You even uncover owner history and some old color snapshots in the glove box.
But, sadly, its engine block is missing. Only the block.
You take this car home and replace the missing engine with a fully restored, blueprinted engine with an undectable restamped pad.
WHICH IF THE TWO CARS IS MORE GENUINE?
Neither is genuine. Was that a trick question. ?
Of course this all decided by what your definition of genuine is.
IMHO matching #'s is meaningless BS that drives up prices of cars and parts.
Last edited by Plastic Pig; Dec 22, 2005 at 12:56 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,257
Likes: 6
From: Mission Viejo California
Originally Posted by Vettebuyer5863
...but obtaining a Top Flight while knowing it's not original is obtaining the certification through fraudulent means....
The NCRS does not certify or guarantee originality. They only judge to a standard. The NCRS allows restoration engines. (they may or may not award all available points)
Is it fraudulent to present the car with a correct, but not original radiator, starter or alternator? Or how about with reproduction parts?
Is someone being fraudulent if they have new carpet or a chrome taillight that was made in Taiwan?
By your statement, any Corvette other than an all-original Bowtie or "Survivor" is a fraud. And maybe even some of them if they ever had the battery replaced or perhaps even an oil change.
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,982
Likes: 6,209
From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
Originally Posted by Seaside63
There is nothing fraudulent in presenting a restored car to a judge who is interested in the appearance of originality.
The NCRS does not certify or guarantee originality. They only judge to a standard. The NCRS allows restoration engines. (they may or may not award all available points)
Is it fraudulent to present the car with a correct, but not original radiator, starter or alternator? Or how about with reproduction parts?
Is someone being fraudulent if they have new carpet or a chrome taillight that was made in Taiwan?
By your statement, any Corvette other than an all-original Bowtie or "Survivor" is a fraud. And maybe even some of them if they ever had the battery replaced or perhaps even an oil change.
The NCRS does not certify or guarantee originality. They only judge to a standard. The NCRS allows restoration engines. (they may or may not award all available points)
Is it fraudulent to present the car with a correct, but not original radiator, starter or alternator? Or how about with reproduction parts?
Is someone being fraudulent if they have new carpet or a chrome taillight that was made in Taiwan?
By your statement, any Corvette other than an all-original Bowtie or "Survivor" is a fraud. And maybe even some of them if they ever had the battery replaced or perhaps even an oil change.
Last edited by vettebuyer6369; Dec 22, 2005 at 01:01 AM.
Live Free or Die
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 7,943
Likes: 27
From: One thing is for sure this kind of discourse and BS would not be tolerated on the NCRS forum. Ohio
Originally Posted by Vettebuyer5863
This would be the self-serving justification I was talking about earlier. You may pretend not to know the difference between a restamped "original" big block and a repro taillight. No point deduction for being disingenuous, I imagine. However, I'm guessing the "R" in NCRS still stands for Restoration (Restorers, actually) so I'll gonna go out on a limb and assume an oil change would not disqualify a vehicle from Top Flight.
Just to play devils advocate here
How is putting the correct "appearing" engine in, NOT "restoration" ?Anybody that buys a car based on that piece of paper is a complete idiot. To me it's worth less than the paper its printed on. Whose to say the car still meets any of the judging standards at time of sale ? That certificate is a snapshot of the day it was judged and nothing more.
I mean if people are aging tank stickers, stamping and epoxying blocks, and repopping trim tags why wouldn't it be all right to clip the original parts off the car before sale. PT anyone ???????
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Camp Verde AZ
C1 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
2017 C1 of Year Finalist
Why the preoccupation with this anyway?
What difference does it really make if the same block sat in the car from day one? Just so someone can say: "my car is original, it is better than yours", or "I have something you don't have"? Which, seems to me to be really what it is all about. No, that is what it is all about, from hearing comments over the past 20 years.
In the end, it doesn't matter anyway, everybody dies, and they can't take their cars with them; over time, all the cars will return to the dirt from which they were made, and all is then equal and as if it never was. Enjoy your car while you can, it really doesn't matter if it is original or not.
Doug
What difference does it really make if the same block sat in the car from day one? Just so someone can say: "my car is original, it is better than yours", or "I have something you don't have"? Which, seems to me to be really what it is all about. No, that is what it is all about, from hearing comments over the past 20 years.
In the end, it doesn't matter anyway, everybody dies, and they can't take their cars with them; over time, all the cars will return to the dirt from which they were made, and all is then equal and as if it never was. Enjoy your car while you can, it really doesn't matter if it is original or not.
Doug