Restamping an engine so it has the "appearance" of being like it left the factory is bogus, IMO. Wanna put a fuelie back on because that's what it had when it left the factory, fine. You can actually see that. You can't see the numbers on the block unless you are looking to BUY IT.

There is a non-existant or near non-existant upside to stamping and all downside. It does NOTHING to help the hobby and only hurts the hobby.

Personally, I love the original or near original cars, but I wouldn't buy one even if was from my mother. Too many crooks out there hacking up cars to make a buck.

 

A little off-topic (rant/soapbox), but it always amazes me, on whatever forum I'm visiting at the time, this topic causes the same debate (and sometimes flame throwing) on each forum. I think maybe it should go to the supreme court along with abortion and capital punishment. I guess if we can't agree on those issues then certainly we will never agree that restamping is acceptable, or deserves the death sentence.

There never will be, but too bad there is no "standard" to abide by as to what is acceptable and what is not. There are many different opinions/views expressed in this thread. That's the beauty of having these cyber-discussions. In the real world, it doesn't matter and one opinion is worth (or about as worthless) as another.

The market has proven that "numbers matching" matters, whether some like it, or care, or not. I'll bet most (but again, not all) of the members here have wondered at one point or another "what's it worth". Many also hope that it's worth as much if not more than they paid for it, especially if they are selling. At least up to this point it wasn't a bunch of resto-rods and cut-up disco-era leftovers driving the prices.
(rant/soapbox off).

 

Good Point Joe.

I guess it boils down to every 50 year old man wants to marry a 20 year old virgin.

Evidently that stamp pad represents the hymen and people are willing to pay for it.

The hymen on my block is intact even though it was covered with rust and gunk. Is it still a hymen if I remove the rust?

??

 

Vettebuyer5863,
I have no quarrel with the fact that selling a restamped block as original is clearly fraud, I do not think that anyone would ever agrue that point. My only quarrel was with your statement that accepting a Top Flight award with a "restored" stamp pad is fraud. It is not fraud and is clearly allowed under the rules of judging. To knock somebody for following the rules for flight judging, just beacuse you disagree witth the rules is unfair. My only assumption was that you did not understand the rules and standards for Flight judging. I have no quarrel with you or anybody else on this board, but when you make misstatements that clearly are in error, I will point them out.

There is nothing the rasies the level of conflict like this subject, but when all is said and done, I think that, with very few exceptions, we all agree that selling a car as something it is not, is fraud, plain and simple! I do however, think that trying to thwart future fraud by stopping people from restoring stamp pads for judging, is unrealistic. As long as points are awarded to the pad, and the rules allow it, then people will continue to stamp pads. I am a person who has never represented an engine on any car that I have ever sold as being original, even though I was quite sure that several of them were, in fact, the original engine that was in the car when it left the factory. I am uncomfortable doing so since I have not owned the car since it was new. I have represented cars as being "fully restored" and as having a flight judging score of a particulal level, and nothing else. I take care of my own moral obligation, but I refuse to take responsibility for how someone might represent a car, years after I have owned it. We should be going after the crooks who defraud people but we should not be throwning stones at people who are only pursuing their hobby with no intention of defrauding anyone. Everything we do to restore a car has the potential to defraud a buyer in the future. How many repainted and reupholstered cars do you think are sold every year as "original"?
If you lead a buyer to believe something about a car that is not true, you are defrauding them. To me there is something completely wrong with someone selling a car that is completely restored car that has the original stamp pad, and calling that car "original". Yet nobody seems concerned about this until you bring the stamp pad into the equation, and then they just pop a cork! I will NEVER sell a car that I have restored as "original", no matter how high the judging score, so for me this has never been a moral dilema. I can't control how somebody in the future represents any portion of my restoration, so I don't lose any sleep over it. If any of you guys lie awake at night worrying about whether someone is going to defraud some buyer with your car in the future, I suggest that you take the simple way out and just burn your car to the ground rather than sell it. That is the only way you can excercise any control over your car after it is out of your hands. As for some of the holier-than-thou's that want to change my mind on this matter. it just aint going to happen.

Regards, John McGraw

 

78Vette-SA,

You know it is funny, I build both restored cars and Resto-rods. Smoetimes a car is just too far gone to restore, and these cars go the resto-rod route. The funny thing is that the resto-rods are bringing more money than the restored cars, and people don't care whether the numbers match or not! This of course does not take into account the high end bigblock cars, and those are really the only ones where restamping is much of an issue anyway. Nobody in their right mind would ever restamp a base-engine car except for judging, there is just not enough money in it to be worthwhile. I really have no desire to own a bigblock Corvette, and never have. Besides, my little LS1 powered 59 will run off and hide from a bigblock Corvette in stock trim!

http://www.villagephotos.com/pubgallery.asp?id_=339303

Regards, John McGraw

 

A common theme seems to be occuring here.

people who are opposed to stamping are looking to make money from an (their) investment, people who stamp to deceive are looking to make money from those who want to make money from an investment, and those who don't care about stamping, just like the cars for what they are.

Doug

 

I just love all Vettes and think restamping is BS. If I could have a Christmas wish it would be for the long lost GM buildsheets to show up, or even better, that Santa comes down tommorow night and wipe the numbers off every Chevy engine whethers its in a car or not. Then he vaporizes all tank stickers and any documetation. Nobody will be able to prove anything and we can start fresh knowing all documentation is gone and all corvettes are equal Then and only then will this end.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

 

"The funny thing is that the resto-rods are bringing more money than the restored cars, and people don't care whether the numbers match or not! "
------------

John,

I agree completely. However, I believe the trend has changed in the last couple of years. Resto-rods are finally accepted for what they are. I've been looking for the right donor and have a modified LS1 and tranny tucked away for when I find it. I can't wait. To keep me occupied in teh meantime I've ripped my 72 apart and am in the process of repainting and I don't plan to get it judged.

I just did the NCRS thing (ORIGINAL engine and no restamping). I did it for me and I enjoyed every minute of it and someday might do it again (and restamp if necessary) but it's time for something else. It wouldn't matter to me if it was a base care, fuelie, or big block with rare options. I do it for the enjoyment of it. But that's me and of course others have alterior motives. I think there is a place for the NCRS method as well as drop and chop. But I wouldn't pawn it off as something it ain't.

I've seen your 59. It's truly a piece of craftsmanship and must be an absolute blast to drive. It probably cost more to build than it would to restore it and have it judged (With to without the original or restamped engine). You did it your way and I'm all for that. My 34 Ford didn't even start as a 34 Ford. The guy who bought it this summer after I spent 3-1/2" years building it didn't care. I got a lot more for it then a real 34 Ford would have ever brought. Actually, I don't think there was anything Ford on the whole car except the 8.8" posi rear up to an including the Chevy Engine.

Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays to all!



No need to restamp:



And you wouldn't believe the flack I took on some street-rod forums and at car shows for putting a Chevy engine in a replacated 34 Ford. Pretty much like this thread. I'm wanted in 4 states!

 

uh Colin, those who have been on these forums for a long enough time know that your car now has a "restoration" motor in it (I am not "outing" Colin, as he wrote about his inability to save the #s mathing block a few years back onthis forum) and if one were to REALLY pay attention and follow that car back, one would see it (motor) configured differently in years past (a 300 hp car, as I recall) - so I am having a hard time reconcilling your stated position on this issue with the path you took with your car (I accept everyone has a position and just because it doesn't match mine doesn't make it wrong).

If #s don't matter and they are stupid, what did you do to the stamp pad on the motor currently in your car, and why are you now a little coy about your car's NOM?

Because originality or the appearence of originality is very important to some people . . . .

 

Simple answers to the questions:
A. Yes, I would restamp it.
B. I would not lie about originality, but would not have a problem saying it is matching numbers.
C. Yes, mouth shut. It is the job of the NCRS judges to determine the "look" of originality (not that it IS original).

Based on some of the replies, too many folks seem to think that the cost and effort put into getting high scores in NCRS judging amounts to fraud, it's not. I merely say that it is admirable of those seeking to restore their cars to "as original as possible" for their efforts. Well documented vehicles speak for themselves.

 

would you sell it as numbers matching and saying nothing else about the engine's originality?

 

I just realized something! Now I know why so many people on EBAY say "I am selling this for a friend......."

 

I would say it's numbers matching, BUT not the original engine... My other .02 is can we really define "orginal" as how it left the factory, so even if you replaced the w/w blades, it should be defined as NOT orginal anymore.. It just depends to what level some people go... I personally will be putting in a stamped NOM 180 block in my 65... Not to misrepresent it, but I just want it the way it was when it left the factory ( I think).. Nothing more nothing less.. I'm doing it for ME..

Enjoy your cars everyone..

/joe

 

Nobody is going to change anybodies mind, and I have seen some interesting opinions and reasoning, but by about now...



Doug

 

that's fair

 

I have yet to see a real original engine stamp on this forum or eBay. It's amazing that people are such suckers. I'm also surprised that even some of the forum guys were fooled by the PICs posted in these threads.

 

There are NO stamp pads posted in this thread. So you are referring to what? And unless you are Al Grenning, what makes you an expert?

 

Dear 78 Vette,

I'm no expert...I just walk in the garage and look at my real cars. It makes it so easy to point out the fakes. Working for the GM years ago helps out too. As for my reference to threads I was speaking of the many I've reviewed on this forum and my comment seemed relative to this one.

 

iniguy:

How did you end up with the last name of Chevy?

Post pics of your pads so that we can learn from them.

Mike

 

I have seen several original stamp pics on this forum, but since you have not, here is both a frame stamp and a block stamp from a 60.



http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1554564


Regards, John McGraw