Never showed my car for any judging type of events although my wife thinks it "would be a good example for the kids on what hard work brings".

Was reading the NCRS board and was saddened that judging motivated someone to sell his car. I'm not a member (although owned my car for 23 years) therefore am not at all criticizing. Just seen other cases of people all freaked out and really not enjoying the judging event as I think they should.

Does judging do this to a person or was it just this sellers nature/makeup?

"The previous owner achieved multiple top flight awards. In reviewing his documents we noticed he had received deductions for not having plastic. This is the plastice bag around the manual etc in the glove box. He has everything in a checrolet super service "envelope" dated 11/23/1960.Your comments please paper or plastic?"

"This is why he lost 15 points because he did not have the plastic bag. He also lost 45 points for having the incorrect water pump. His 326 water pump, original to the car, cost him points."

"We think this previous owner suffered because he did not or would not correct the judges. Maybe this is not allowed. From a perfect score he had 60 points removed and was so discussed he sold me the car. This is as perfect as we have ever seen."

 

Sounds like the owner got fed up with deductions for things that, it would seem, NCRS deemed incorrect in spite of what the owner thought was 100% correct.

I know one reason I quit taking my 62 to shows of any kind, was because the number of know-it-alls who wanted to tell me what was wrong with my car, far outweighed the number of people who gave me positive feedback. Example: While cleaning my car at Bloomington Gold in 1990, before I had even removed it from the trailer, someone walked by and exclaimed that my antenna was too short, the tip should be XYZ inches off the rear fender. Never mind the fact that 1) It is a variable height, NOS antenna, and 2) I had it fully collapsed for the trip up there.

 

Hello Gonefishn,
The story you are asking for a respone. The NCRS Flight Judging System has 4,500 points to have no decuctions. They offer some bonus points to drive the car to the meet. They offer bonus points for battery cut off switch, fire exstinger and a NCRS window decal.
A Top Flight award is based in scoreing 94 to 100 % - 4,230 to 4,500 points.
A Second Flight award is based in scoreing 88 to 93 %
A Third Flight award is based in scoreing 81 to 87 %
One flight award point is 45 judging points.
The 60 points deducted you talked about still gives the car a Top Flight Award.
I have been a member of the NCRS for the past 30 years.
Join the NCRS to see the cars and meet great people.
Regards,
Drew Papsun

 

Hello Jeff,
The NCRS sells judging manual to educate how the Corvettes are being judged.
The knowitall who pasted comment about your Corvette antenna, he just talking, never mind the source. The Judges at the event have the call about your Corvette scoring.
Did you score at Bloomington Gold a Silver Award?
Regards,
Drew Papsun

 

Howdy,
Yes, I used those judging guides religiously when restoring my car. I hadn't seen anything about the antenna height when I built the car.

That guy at Bloomington was just a jerk, but he was one of the last jerks in a long line of know-it-alls I had come arcoss in the 7 years I had been showing my car. In that time I went to 1 NCRS event, Bloomington, and many other car shows. Usually what I find are the guys who argue with me about whether or not my car should have wide or thin white walls in 62, why my car doesn't have factory A/C, etc.

My Bloomington experience was interesting, and I hope my story doesn't spawn a pi$$ing contest

My car received a Gold score, with a 1 grade deduct to a Silver certification, because the engine shop that built my "numbers" motor, stamped the VIN 1/4" too close to the head. (Disclaimer - when I restored my car, putting a restamped motor in was just part of the process of restoring it to the original configuration, it wasn't a fraud show like it is now. The motor was an exact match for what was in the car originally).

The engine judges spent quite a bit of time on my car. I was 100% open about it being a stamped motor. I don't think the term "restoration motor" was used back then. The judges liked everything about the stamp, but the location. Bringing some guys over from the original assembly line, they explained that the gang that held the stamps was pushed up against the head before the stamp was done. This by definition created a fixed minimal distance between the front of the head and the stamp - which my car failed to meet.

So, I took a lot of pride in seeing that MY work was in the high 98% range (if memory serves) but the engine I paid for was not.

That 1 NCRS event I went to when the car was first completed was interesting because I restored my 62 between the ages of 17 and 19, and I had just turned 20 before the NCRS event. Poor judging practices and bad attitudes of judges really turned me off, and I reacted unfavorably to the treatment. I asked some friends of mine - mid-year NCRS judges - to rejudge my car after the event, in the parking lot, so that I could get a more accurate feel for how the car stood up. I knew many of the things that were right and wrong, but there were many other things that the judging manual didn't address. I really didn't care that I did not get a top flight, I had gone to the event to learn what was wrong with my car but what I learned was that I was treated poorly by people with curiously bad attitudes. I later learned that many of the adults running that show thought I was some spoiled rich kid who'se daddy gave him this restored car and was "demanding" a top flight.

Morons.

I of course realize that's a single event that does not reflect on the NCRS community as a whole, but I sure wasn't motivated to spend the time and money to tow my car another 300 miles to the next NCRS event.

Jeff

 

I think "very early" 63's had the paper envelope. Later had the plastic bag. A minor point, IMHO. The JG says plastic only. I believe the JG is incorrect in this area.

I've NEVER seen a 326 pump on an original 63.

That being said, a 60 point hit out of 4510 is miniscule. I don't have a calculator with me, but that would be a score in the high 98% range. That's Duntov Award territory. Top Flight is 94%, or a loss of about 270 points.

I don't see what his gripe was/is? We don't live in a perfect world.

I'd be VERY HAPPY with only a 60 point hit on any of my cars. Chuck

 

We all buy these cars for different reasons. Those that choose he NCRS route derseve alot of respect. Given the shape that many of these cars are in when we buy them, It takes considerable time, effort, research as well as a ton of $$$ to bring them to NCRS standards. I really hate to hear that someone takes it that seiously, that they would sell because of an NCRS infraction. Life is way too short to get upset over something like that. Regardless of the condition of your car, do you realize how many people love to have a mid-year vette? Those of us that own at least one are extremely lucky. Enjoy it. If you bought it to get NCRS GOLD and you don't get it-- Make that changes and go for the GOLD next time. Regardless, enjoy your cars.

 

NCRS is a learning process..., both for the car owner and NCRS in general.

NCRS doesn't know it all and there are a lot of cars that were built a certain way that NCRS thought was wrong, but based on a number of cars with these "wrong parts" changes the judging manual do occur over time.

My 1st day '70 had a lot of pecularities and during the first couple judgings, received deductions. Later, the word was put out, and several cars were documented with these pecularities. The manual was subsequently changed and we stopped getting deductions.

One such change was that my '70 did not have the VIN stamped on the engine pad. Seems that the first week in the '70 production year, they put the VIN by the oil filter. The manual was changed accordingly. Also things like the vacuum take-off on the intake manifold were changed in the manual. Same with the exhaust manifold.

If you think your water pump is correct, put the word out and NCRS will/should attempt to document similar occurances in other cars of near VIN #s.

My '70 directly resulted in several chages to the judging manual. Get hold of your Judging chairman for your year group and change the system from within. That's what I did.

 

Hell at my age I just drive the damn thing.....I dont have the money to bring it to NCRS standards...So I clean it...keep it shiney...and drive.

People get a kick out of the older cars...its nice to get a wave from a passing car or truck on the highway..and see the smiles on their faces...

 

IMHO the NCRS types are bad for the hobby, don't get it judged, drive the hell out of it and enjoy. I have two AACA National first place cars (55 Studebaker Speedster and 70 Chevelle Conv.) that I had judged to validate what I paid for them. What a PITA, these guys reminded me of the Nedelmeier character in Animal house; very linear thought process and no fun to be with. In my travels with my Vette I've experienced two quite rude NCRS people. One was actually trying to get me to sign up by insulting me; he could lead me to the promised land of "top flight".
His manner was to talk down to me like I was a child. IMHO judging should not be done, it only creates disension because the nature of judges is to judge for obviously they are the superior "keepers of the flame'" How many of our cars are now driven only in and out of trailers lest driving them results in the loss of some of a point. Bad for our hobby, yes.

Now I have a very good 64 conv. and I'm older and hopefully wiser so I don't care to subject myself and my car to people who think Vettes should be nick-knacks on a shelf, dusted twice a day, never driven.
Just my humble opinion.

 

Wow, for real? I never heard that one before. I guess today will go down as one of those rare days where I learned something new! Any idea how that happened? Presumably they were stamping the 69 blocks including the last one. Why not the first 70s? I will keep an eye out for any super early 70s I see. Might be a nice candidate for a smallblock to bigblock conversion!


I have attended several regional and national NCRS meets and have had the pleasure of looking over the shoulders of some of the top judges (it's called "observer judging", or "OJ" )
The judges that I have observed (Actually I am supposed to be observing the cars, but obviously I am watching the judges too) in this fashion were always [ALWAYS] polite, respectful, complimentary to the owners, thanked the owners for bringing their cars in for judging and carefully explained the deductions that were taken. They tended to refer to "what they have seen" rather than "what they know as gospel truth."

 

NCRS is a good orginization but many many items in the JM are wrong for all year Corvettes , I'm member #182 have had many 55's and %50 of the item in the JM are wrong or missing and because you rarely ever see a 55 being judged they don't bother up dating the JM for them.

 

wow, Stall, great to see you're not very ''judgemental" yourself. And it doesn't appear to me that your opinion is that 'humble'. Of course there are jerks in all walks of life - it's a pity you've only met 'NCRS-jerks' and not the hundreds of great members/judges that really do contribute to the hobby in a very positive way.

 

I have read all the interesting threads before me and so I just have to get my two bits in as well. I have been an NCRS member for about 25 years and have gotten more good than bad out of it however my last experience left a pretty bad taste in my mouth.
I was in desperate need for some information pertaining to my Corvette
and I started a discussion in the NCRS website tech forum. Several of the responses I got back were to just "look it up in the AIM". That I took as being smart ***. The question may have appeared to be dumb and at first I thought so too but thats really not the point. I asked an honest question and was expecting a straight answer. After all a tech forum is set up so that we can help out our Corvette buddies. You get the point? Anyway, there is a certain attitude out there and I can't say that its prevailing but you have to accept them for who they are and weigh the good guys against the not so good. The best thing I have gotten out of it is that I have made a lot of friends.
BTW, I am also an observer judge and I have seen the sensitivity of some Corvette owners during judging and I make every effort to be tactful in my conversation.

 

No idea how or why, but the judging manual NOW reads:

"In the first three to five days of 1970 production an alternate location was used for the serial number derivative. Look for this number above the oil filter, on the side of the case just in front of the bell housing"

My car was #131 and is estimated to have been made near the end of the third shift of the first day of production.

 

Rule #1 for the ultimate pleasure with your Corvette - NEVER take it to a Corvette show

 

Bill

 

You have to take NCRS for what it is , it will help you bring your Corvette back or near original but it's not the last word in what's correct // Then you need to investigate the rest by asking other owners of the same year Corvette .
Biggest problem with NCRS weather their JM is right or wrong is to do what they say to pedigree a Corvette for resale because most people take their awards as the gospel .
A vary large % of awarded Corvettes go up for sale , it's become a stop off point to increase the value of ones Corvette, few long time owners ever return entering their Corvette again. Most trailer queens are never seen after a couple awards and are sold.

 

Hi Aussie, Sorry if I came off as judgemental, it was not my intention. I would submit that an organization as controversial as the NCRS is not without fault. Notice that whenever a judging question comes up there are about 50 % true believers and 50 % or so that vividly remember an unpleasant experience with them. I think that level of unhappy customers would sink most organizations and it splits the hobby.

This forum is much friendlier with better info than the NCRS one.

By the way this may only be my opinion humble as it is. If I offended anyone, I apoligize.

 

I replied earlier, but this thread is getting more interesting. I joined NCRS last year and I'll probably maintain my membership in the years to come. My car is not and will not ever be in a condition to be judged at an NCRS function. NCRS members and/or judges are a priceless resource for our hobby. Just because you may not want to restore/repair you car to their standards doesn't mean that their input isn't very helpful.They are preserving the history of our beloved vettes for the generations to come. I'm sure that just as in any organization, there are a few NCRS member that are jerks. Don't judge them all by the actions of a few. Be a little more tolerant. Respect the opinion from an NCRS judge for what it is. An opinion-- period!!!!!Just relax and enjoy your car. As I said earlier, Life is wayyy to short.