Donn 66

I'M Sure I'll get chewed on for this but I have got to ask anyway! I'm just about done restoring my 66 and been trying to get it as original as possible
(not for anyone but myself). I have a few things that aren't original like the radiator,starter,alternator,exspansion tank and leather seats but i went through a lot of trouble finding the correct replacement parts ( bolts, nuts, washers, brake lines, and well everything else that couldn't be cleaned up and painted or polished to look good. Now my question is after all this work i'm reading the bible of the NCRS and it nocks the hell out of everthing I did. Like no rust or heat stains or check this for original not a replacement part and so on and so on. These cars are 30 years old where do they think people are going to find a car that hasn't been driving or even started for that long :confused: Not that I want to show my car at NCRS show but if I did I can't imagine what the judges would think or say about my car. I feel really bad about careing what somebody else things about my car and the work I did on it but I do! So is all the work and pain I went through really worth it? :cry





[Modified by Donn 66, 6:31 PM 1/15/2002]

john m

If your car is what you want it to be, then be satisfied with it. The NCRS gets a bad rap from a lot of people. This is my take... if you don't like their rules, don't go to their house to play. I am a member, and really enjoyed having my '63 judged last fall. It was probably the best way to find out what was right and what was wrong with my car. I am glad there is a group like the NCRS who has gone to the trouble and tremendous effort to document what an original Corvette is truly supposed to be. As for the rust or heat stains, cars are judged on a scale of over 4500 points...if you lose a point here and there, its still easy to walk away with a Top Flight...

just my $0.02

Donn 66

Ok now I feel bad! I wasn't putting the NCRS down I guess I just don't understand ! is there a class for restored by DRIVER?

john m

I didnt think you were putting down the NCRS at all....its unfortunate that for a lot of people, their first contact with the NCRS is when they find out that they bought a car that is not what it was supposed to be...If I were you, I'd contact your local NCRS chapter and haev your car judged at a local meet...its a great way to meet fellow enthusiasts who enjoy Corvettes...as I said above, if you are happy with your car, thats all that matters :cool:

SWCDuke

I agree with John. NCRS judges to an original "as built" standard with normal dealer prep. Take it or leave it, but I've seen many overrestored cars win awards. NCRS has the most rigorous judging standards of ANY club in the the entire world, and without them no one, today, would know what an original vintage Corvette really looked like on the showroom. Why not join for a year and attend some events convenient to you to fiind out what NCRS is all about.

NCRS guys are not the ogres some make them out to be, but a great group of Corvette junkies. In addition to Flight judging, there are programs such as Sportsman where you display your car, but it's not judged. Display your car in Sportsman at a couple of events and write an article for the Corvette Restorer and you get recognized for your contribution. NCRS is more than just Flight judging.

I'm a member and an original owner of a SWC, but I will probably never have my car flight judged because it will be overrestored, and I refuse to spend good money on bias ply tires; plus I don't want to get dinged for the 2.5 inch sewer pipe stubs welded onto my (original) exhaust pipes just below the manifolds with the spin off caps. We used to call 'em "cut outs", and I still have the ones I had welded on a few months after I bought it. As far as I'm concerned, they're "original to me", and that's what counts in my book plus I can document my car back to the factory order and plant delivery, and damned few Top Flight or Duntov award cars can make that claim.

Maybe I'll see you in Sportsman. I'll have the Riverside Red SHP SWC with open exhaust. ;)

Duke

Blkblt

Hi, Donn!!

Nice ride, my friend!

I agree with john m. I am also a member of the NCRS and actively participate in the Rocky Mountain meetings. I joined for one reason only...to learn. I did not buy my car to either have it judged or to bring it up to "NCRS standards". There are lots of things "correct" with it and lots of things that are and will remain "incorrect" (I like the ride of the mono rear spring, and I like the performance of the Demon carb over the correct Holley in the box, etc.). I have had a couple of NCRS guys tell me that I should have the car judged anyway, that I might be surprised at the outcome (certainly a third-flight; probably a second-flight). But, I do not care in the least about that. When the club has its annual judging event, I place the Beast as a "Sportsman" (not judged; just drive it in), and I help in judging other cars....because THAT IS HOW I LEARN.

I know that NCRS does, indeed, get a bad rap occasionally...well deserved in some instances, not so in others. Like anything else, there arrogant gnorphs, nearks, and turd-birds in the NCRS. There are also more great folks that will go out of their way to help you.

You have/are restoring your car in the manner that suits you. I agree with john m....join NCRS (if you aren't already) and have that great looking 66 judged since (and, I am guessing here) I really think that is what you would like to do. I also predict you will be pleasantly surprised...and you WILL learn a great deal about it in the process. :yesnod:

"But, thats just my opinion; I could be wrong...." :cheers:

****************

****************
Jeff
Ô66. Modified L72
ÒThe Silver BeastÓ
Keep on :cheers: :cool: :seeya

"When I die, I would like to go peacefully, in my sleep, like my Grandfather did. Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car." --- Jack Handey

Donn 66

Hi Duke I guess I like to find out more but I live in northern Michigan and where lucky to have sun light let alone an NCRS club. But I will be attendening some NCRS show's and Forum cruise-in this year> I've done enought work on the girl now it's time to cruise and burn rubber! :D


Hey BLKBLT!! How's everything in Colorado? I really enjoyed the time we had with you and Lars and thanks again for letting Lars use your car for a test bed. The fire wasn't too bad but the beers where great :cheers: :cheers:



[Modified by Donn 66, 6:45 PM 1/15/2002]

JohnZ

Donn -

NCRS judging focuses primarily on "originality", and on "condition". It differs from traditional "Show-and'Shine" judging in that surgical cleanliness is not important; NCRS encourages that cars be driven, and there are no deductions for normal road dust; in fact, there are bonus points awarded based on the number of miles a car is actually driven (not trailered) to a judging event. Simply stated, in NCRS judging, your car is not compared against other cars being judged - all cars are compared individually against a published Judging Standard, and how closely they meet that standard in terms of how original they appear to be and their condition. Lots of Top Flight cars are driven - mine included. You can learn a lot about your car, but primarily, it's about the people, not the cars :) . I'm the Michigan NCRS Chapter Chairman, and we have lots of fun Corvette activities - out of all 10 of our yearly events, only one is the annual judging meet.


[Modified by JohnZ, 6:45 PM 1/15/2002]

TheOman

You have to decide if the pain was worth it or not. As John Z says you are going to be judged against a standard not against other cars. As you say getting the parts to meet that standard is expensive, oh so expensive.

Just enjoy the car your way. I used to get my shorts all in a knot over the NCRS Zealots who bash modified cars. Once I trained myself to accept their point of view if they just accepted mine it was a lot more fun at shows.

Enjoy your car your way. That really is all that matters at the end of the day.

Chuck Gongloff

I've been a NCRS member for 20 years. I've been a Corvette owner for 35 years. I'm very active in the Mason Dixon Chapter. I also belong to the Mid Atlantic Chapter. I thoroughly enjoy NCRS events. Your car is judged according to a standard. If you meet the standard, you earn your award. You are not judged against other cars in your class. NCRS states it's purpose right up front. "As delivered to the dealer, without mods". It's that simple. Bloomington Gold has a similar standard. Without doubt, NCRS Top Flight and Bloomington Gold are the two most prestigeous awards you can receive with your Corvette, IF original restoration is your thing. That being said, we have many NCRS members with modified, non original cars. It's a GREAT group of people. Join if you aren't a member already. Get involved with a local Chapter. NCRS is a super organization. The magazines are worth the price of membership alone. Chuck

DZAUTO

Donn,
I pretty much have to agree with everything which has been said above, with some additions. NCRS was formed in 74 and I have been a member since 78. I have a 56-------------------------BUILT MY WAY!
As a result of several issues over the years, NCRS has just about changed thier total attitude toward the hobby. It is ABUNDANTLY true that at one time, years ago, NCRS had an "attitude" toward NON-factory type Corvettes. And I was one of the people that was on the receiving end. Over the years I maintained my membership (sure glad that I did), but I was not active. In time, as the organization began to learn from their mistakes, they realized that there are Corvettes and Corvette owners out there that should be recognized EVEN THOUGH the car is not maintained/restored to absolute, correct factory original condition. For he most part, I will assure you that it is without a doubt, one of the FINEST automobile organizations anywhere.
Yes, the foundation of NCRS focuses on what a Corvette looked like when it rolled out the back door of the St. Louis assembly plant (plus prep by the selling dealer before delivery to the buyer). IF YOU DON'T WANT YOUR CAR TO LOOK LIKE A FRESH, BRAND NEW 1966 CORVETTE,-----------THAT'S OK!!!!!! BUUUUUUUUUUUUT, honestly, it is great that so much dedicated research has been done in order to really know what one of these cars looked like at the end of the assembly line. YEARS AGO, SOME JUDGES WERE, WELL, ------------------I CAN'T SAY IT HERE. But, trust me, today's NCRS judges will lead you by the hand and VERY politely explain everything in as much detail as you desire--------------NOT to put down your car---------------but let you know how your own car compares to the way the union workers at St. Louis originally built it. As already mentioned, your car is NEVER in competition with other cars. It is compared with the most accurate as possible information as to what was built in 66. If 37 cars are judged, and all 37 cars score the same, then they ALL receive the same award.
A number of years ago, one of the candidates for the Okla chapter was running for office and he contacted the members in the chapter asking for their vote. Man, I chewed him up one side and down the other side! He was cool, calm and expressed that he was sorry that if in any way he had ever done anything to offend me. He also invited me to attend the Okla monthly meetings, and, if I liked, I could join the chapter for free for one year and then decide if NCRS was the NCRS I once knew.
Well, I did. And now, that guy is the National Judging Chairman, and, surprisingly, we are VERY good friends. He is Roy Sinor.

So, give it a shot, then decide.


[Modified by DZAUTO, 6:22 PM 1/15/2002]

LT4Coupe

The NCRS is closer than any other organization in documenting Corvette originality. But it's not perfect. Judging guides contain errors, inconsistencies and overlooked items. NCRS judges vary widely in knowledge and skill and experience. Conforming to NCRS standards means just that -- that your car meets ITS standards and what IT believes to be correct. If your car has an original item that is documented differently by the NCRS, you will get a deduction during judging. Corvettes rolled off the line with a whole lot of inconsistencies. The Corvette Bible has not yet been written.

64_365

I've been in the NCRS about a year and I believe it is a fine organization with a singular purpose. The information I've gained has been well worth the cost of membership.
Personally, I could give a flip about recreating factory shortcomings like overspray on the intake, bellhousing, and in the wheelwells. Mixing paint to spray your frame to duplicate the fade from drying in the sun is pretty much a waste of time in my book. I think the term "**** retentive" applies here. It's not for me but if it trips your trigger and doesn't break any laws, go for it. :conehead

GaryS

Donn, the others have said it well. I am an NCRS member and have been so for over nine years. Despite that I believe in the attitude of build it the way you want to. Now, don't get me wrong! I have a very original, low mileage 72 LT1 and I had a very unoriginal 66 driver.

The thing about NCRS judging is that you may find that you have something that goes against the grain of the judging manual but often the points deduction is minor. My 66 was bought for driving pleasure and it looked very original until you got down to the tiny details like bolt head stamps etc. On the other hand, buying a car, restoring/repairing it, and THEN checking the judging manuals seems to be the wrong way to go. Along with others here and at the NCRS Discussion Board, I have advised others to do their homework with the appropriate books BEFORE you buy or restore. A lot of stuff is out there that is incorrect as far as restoration.

Above all else, enjoy your car.
Gary

Tom/99

Don't rag on the NCRS, they are a great club. They helped me get my 65 Coupe, auto, factory air, for a steal. The previous owner lost interest in the car due to the NCRS judging standards.

DZAUTO

As I mentioned earlier, i have a 56 built MY WAY. I sort of regret it, but not completely. I bought the car in 73 because I am a 56-7 freak. I've wanted that body ever since they were new. NCRS was formed in 74, which is when I started disassembling my 56. If I had known at the time about NCRS and returning the car to factory originality, I would have done several things differently. For example, I would NOT have chromed EVERY metal part on the car that would fit into a chrome tank (the frame and block/heads are not chrome), I would have had it painted the correct color, under the hood would be black instead of body color, etc, etc. When I installed the 62 rear axle housing, I got rid of the original 56 housing/axles. Now, I would still have many of the mods that I have on the car, BUT, they would ALL be 100% bolt on mods. Such as a BIG SB, 4sp, posi, etc. Fortunately, I did not do things such as butcher up the dash for an AMFM cassette or change out the original tach for an aftermarket tach. Since the original 265 engine was gone when I bought the car, then whatever engine that went into it would NOT be the original engine, so, what the heck! AGAIN, I am not a numbers person, BUT I do recognize that the market will bring more for a car that is CLOSER to original than one which is not.

WHATEVER IS YOUR PREFERENCE, THEN DO IT!!!!!!!!!!! If you want a 100% correct car, fine. If you want to cut the car in half and graft on a 59 Cadillac rear, fine. The only advice I might offer is, whatever you do, maybe give it a little thought first, rather than just jump out there and do it.

GregP

We are members of NCRS and NCCC, and participate in the local clubs of both. Although I'm not interested in chasing down the correct dated parts for my project (who would have guessed), my wife does enjoy the challange of an "exact" restoration for her cars (she has two Corvettes, I have to make to with only one). We enjoy the people and activities of both clubs, although I have to admit that the NCRS shows often have a more interesting collection of cars. I feel quite at home with the NCRS club, as they are, as was said earlier, a great group of people, with interests in Corvettes and nice cars in general. I don't plan to have "my" Corvette judged (unless it's for the April Fools edition), but have always been welcome at the club events, and many (maybe not all) of the club members have taken an interest in my more radical project (a bit of vicarious living I expect ;) ).

So, don't cut up a "one of a kind" like an original Grand Sport, but outside of that have fun with what you want, and joining in with other enthusiests will add greatly to the fun level.

Oh, I should add that building a "not correct" car can turn out to be just as expensive as a "correct" car if you go to the same high level of craftsmanship I've seen on most NCRS members cars.

-Greg

Rair67

If you have an original vette- of which there are few around, it would make no sense to make any changes that would lose any of it's originallity. If you have purchased one which is in need of about everything, it's up to the owner to decide whether to go the 'NCRS' route, or modify it to his/her particular desire. The great thing about the Corvette hobby to me is, as was previously stated- the people. No matter how you like your vette, the comadare and friendship amongst Corvette owners has always been the most appealing part of this hobby. Well, sure- driving the car is great too!!! :cool:

I have had my '67 top flight judged twice and Bow Tie judged, and the judges were more concerned and appreciative of the originallity of the car, then some dirt and grease you will have on any car that's 30-35 years old, and driven.

I am restoring a '65, and it will be done 'my way' with suspension upgrades and other features which will make it more fun to drive. Other than that- I will keep close to 'original' as it is hard to improve on the way the General made it.

Good luck!!

:cheers:

Chuck Gongloff

GaryS hit the nail on the head. I always advise people who buy a Corvette to have it judged BEFORE they do anything IF NCRS judging is going to be their "thing". By having it judged, you'll get a laundry list of things to be done to the car. To restore a car, and buy a lot of parts, and then consult the NCRS manuals is backwards in my humble opinion, again only IF NCRS and Bloomington Gold type judging is your ultimate goal. Hope this helps. Chuck

andy60

Donn 66,

Your car looks super.

The answer to one of your questions:
Is there a class for a restored driver? Is yes, it is the Sportmans Class.

I like what John M said above...

Have Fun
Andy