I think it's more a case of cars with documentation command a premium over cars with no documentation. This value phenomenon creates a incentive for unscrupulous people to falsify documentation in an attempt to capture some or all of that premium.

In my opinion, there is no "lift" in the value of non documented cars arising from documented cars, as you are suggesting.

 

The age of the paper and the age of the ink does not tie a order copy to a serial number or a copy of the order copy to a serial number! The NCRS Document Validation Service does and its only $40.00

 

What is in that report that gives so much? From the NCRS site:


What I am reading is that if the dealer code, dealer name, dealer address, and date shipped match what is on your documentation, that that is all they have to verify your documentation.

So if you have a fake, order the shipping data report, make your fake documents with the right dealer information, and suddenly, NCRS is verifying your documents are real with their Document Validation Service.



Yet NCRS constantly claims they are not in the business of certifying cars.

 

Any car that went through the used car sales lot lost its documentation. Since they were just cars back then, most were traded after a couple of years.


You know the old saying, Chevy built 3754 1967 435 hp cars, and all 3900 of them have been found and restored. Best of all, paperwork exists on all 4200 of them.


I've owned 7 Corvettes, and only one had any paperwork. And that paperwork only was what was gathered by the person I bought it from over her 10 years of ownership.


I'd be real suspicious if they had the POP, window sticker, and order form, but didn't have anything else, like dealer maintenance, tire receipts, any mechanical work, and so on. Anyone picky enough to save original paperwork would have saved every bit of paperwork.

 

it does make a difference on things like the tank sticker or window sticker if you can tell when the paper was made or what type of iink was used.

 

What I am saying is that without $300K documented rare cars there would not be $50K drivers

 

I'd be real suspicious if they had the POP, window sticker, and order form, but didn't have anything else, like dealer maintenance, tire receipts, any mechanical work, and so on. Anyone picky enough to save original paperwork would have saved every bit of paperwork.[/QUOTE]

Best advice yet

 

Nope. There are three more columns of data for each VIN (see page 49 of the Spring, 2011 edition of the "Restorer" magazine) that can verify original paperwork; none contain any option information, but appear only on the original documents.

 

Well, I can tell you that is absolutely NOT true! I'm the second owner of my '67, since 1971 - 3 years before NCRS was even founded - and I do have the POP and original bill of sale, but not all of the other miscellaneous paperwork.

Why? Well, when I bought it, it was just a used car with a bad engine. Out came the L79, in went a 1970 LT1 350/370 HP block. I threw the old block away!! No body cared about "matching numbers"; NCRS didn't even exist yet! Now it has a ZZ4 crate motor and a Tremec 5 spd.

I get very tired of being at shows and having some NCRS noob come over and point out how my car is "incorrect". Some of them haven't even been alive as long as I've owned the car, and are just "checkbook enthusiasts".

So - why keep all of the other paperwork over the years? Who cares what my tires were in 1985, or when I switched to using Mobil 1 oil?

Come on people, these are just cars! We're not trying to authenticate the Shroud of Turin here!

Maybe the difference in my case is that I'm not interested in ever selling it, and am not trying to make a profit on it. It means much more to me than just mere money - my college roommate who I bought it from never came home from 'Nam, and I intend to leave it to my grandson.

Here's a thought - maybe one way to cut down on all the fraudulent restorations would be to report the sales to the IRS to see if they've declared the capital gains on their taxes!

So, yes, some of us DO have original paperwork and documentation without all of the intervening records!

 

Concerning this "Shipping Data Report Service" available from NCRS:

Is this available from NCRS for all C2s, or just some C2s and not others? Presumably you supply NCRS with your car's VIN and they can tell you what zone and what dealer your car was originally delivered to. Do I have this correct?

 

Yes, that's correct - that data is available to NCRS members for 1962-early 70's Corvettes.

 

First, you aren't the original owner. You being second and then owning forever falls outside the typical owner.

Second, the first guy isn't the typical enthusiast that saves everything, either. Odds are the POP was still there because the car was probably just outside of warranty and he hadn't bothered to throw it away. He wasn't one of the collector types (yes, they were around then) as he blew the engine and then sold it, so the car really didn't mean all that much to him.

If he had waited until '75 to sell, odds are he would have thrown away the POP because it would have just been old junk with no value for several years taking space in his glove box. Just like owner's manuals seem to do.

Third, you aren't trying to pass off your car as all original with original documents. So you don't fall into the group I was talking about. Someone has a car that has been lovingly preserved from day 1, or at least not abused but regarded with care, else the original engine would probably be dead and gone, then if they saved the original bill of sale and the POP, odds are very high they saved most other stuff, too.

 

i have the dealer supplied paper work,sales sheets for most all of my cars both new and used back into the late 50s. i got married about then and the mrs saved it. i did not save the any of the official GM paper work as i gave it to the buyer when i sold the cars or left it with the car if i traded. the only official GM paper work i have is the shipper papers for my 1965 396 corvette i picked up at the st louis factory in april 16 of 1965

 

The question I would ask if it was important to me. If the above quote is a disclainer upon there use, why is a piece of non original paper worth so much if its only for show purposes? .....it shouldn't cost but a few pennies more than the original GM ones...{allowance for labor costs, union you know}.....especially since there is a written admission that translates into fakes .....a candy bar wrapper has as much writing on it, or a fake 20 dollar bill isn`t worth the ink used to make it.... and the candy bar wrapper don't cost $400.00 ie {at least not yet}....all those concerned should jump all over this guys *** for rip off prices.....

 

.............sounds like you are changing your definition of who you are talking about!

Now you say:

Originally you said:
[QUOTE=Procrastination Racing;1577499438]


I'd be real suspicious if they had the POP, window sticker, and order form, but didn't have anything else, like dealer maintenance, tire receipts, any mechanical work, and so on. Anyone picky enough to save original paperwork would have saved every bit of paperwork.[/QUOTE]

I was responding to your original statement of "Anyone"; now you have changed to your own definition of a "typical owner". OK, I'll accept that I am not a typical owner, if that means that I'm not trying to pass off fraudulent documentation in order to make a profit!



PS - ya might want to be a little more sensitive in your assumptions about other people. When you said that the car didn't mean much to the "first owner", you are very wrong. It had been a present to him from his parents and had intended to replace the engine himself; He only sold it to me because he was drafted. Try rereading my post before you make assumptions about things.

 

Since you don't state the date he got it and the date you got it, I will assume there is about 4 years. It could be slightly more (Sept. 66 to Dec. 71) or less (Sep. 67 to Jan. 71) but 4 will be good enough.

In 4 years, give or take, he wiped out an engine that should have lasted 150,000 miles. That doesn't fall into the type of person who normally cares for his car like it is his baby. I covered that in "Third" which you ignored. The person who normally cares a lot for his car babies it, parks in inside, keeps it spotless, not just clean, doesn't drag race from every stop light, and so on. These are also the **** retentive types who usually keep every receipt of importance (maintenance bills, dealer repairs, bill of sales, probably tire replacement, etc.).

These are the same ones who cry when you drive away with "their baby". They usually have a stack of papers on the car, and are shocked you wouldn't think those were extremely important.


1967 had a 50,000 mile / 5 year drive train warranty. Why didn't he have the dealer fix it?


You are not a typical owner for the same reason I am not. You still have your Corvette you bought in '71. I still have mine that I bought in '77 and '78. Typical owners sell them after a few years.

 

Well, I guess you and I just have different definitions of what the word "Anyone" means! Kinda reminds me of ol' Slick ***** arguing about what the definition of "is" is.......

QUOTE=Procrastination Racing;1577513720]Since you don't state the date he got it and the date you got it, I will assume there is about 4 years. It could be slightly more (Sept. 66 to Dec. 71) or less (Sep. 67 to Jan. 71) but 4 will be good enough.

In 4 years, give or take, he wiped out an engine that should have lasted 150,000 miles. That doesn't fall into the type of person who normally cares for his car like it is his baby. I covered that in "Third" which you ignored. The person who normally cares a lot for his car babies it, parks in inside, keeps it spotless, not just clean, doesn't drag race from every stop light, and so on. These are also the **** retentive types who usually keep every receipt of importance (maintenance bills, dealer repairs, bill of sales, probably tire replacement, etc.).


These are the same ones who cry when you drive away with "their baby". They usually have a stack of papers on the car, and are shocked you wouldn't think those were extremely important.


1967 had a 50,000 mile / 5 year drive train warranty. Why didn't he have the dealer fix it?

You are not a typical owner for the same reason I am not. You still have your Corvette you bought in '71. I still have mine that I bought in '77 and '78. Typical owners sell them after a few years.[/QUOTE]

Good job on the higher math of figuring out that '71 minus '67 equals four years on a 5 year/50k miles warranty. The warranty was for whichever came first; the miles were up. The engine was not abused (at least not anymore than normal, anyway!) - it had a broken crank at the front main. You tell me how that happens - had to be a forging flaw? Check my prior posts on that matter if you want.

You really have an amazing talent for analizing people's situations and motivations from 40 years ago - and arriving at erroneus conclusions.

This conversation is not productive for either one of us - or those reading it - so how about we give it a rest? Enjoy your cars!

 

"We're not trying to authenticate the Shroud of Turin here!"

Now that's funny! I once went to see the Shroud of Turin while in Torino. Wouldn't you know I was there on the wrong day. (They only exhibit it for a few days every 25 years!)

Thanks for the laugh!

Vetterway

 

Well i thought that the Shroud of Turin was fake. That is documented by experts


But the quality of a car is what most will look at i guess. I know i would

 

Well I guess I'll have to hang my reproduction 1961 window sticker somewhere on a "wall of shame". I bought it for exactly the reasons that web site states.....folks love reading it and seeing what things cost 50 years ago. If anybody believes for two seconds that that laminated, lilly-white document is the original then they are dumber than a box or rocks...