Solid state voltage regulator
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2012
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From: Western Massachusetts
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With out writing a paper on it I'll try to explain. Alternators and generators are both generators, the difference between them has to do with how each converts AC current, which all generators and alternators make initially, into DC current necessary to charge a battery and operate DC designed componentry.
Auto generators do this with a comutator which is essentially a rotary switch that switches the windings back and forth so that the brushes can "conduct" DC off the armature. The comutator is fitted to the end of the armature and the brushes ride on it.
Auto alternators became possible for use in cars when solid state diodes became inexpensive enough to use. The diodes, which allow current to pass in only one direction, replaced the spinning comutator and brushes which had the handicap of having to transmit the entire generator output from the spinning comutator to the car electrical system. Generator capacity had been limited in its ouitput because of this until the alternator arrived in many A/C equiped GM cars for 62. Previous to that alternators used externally mounted selenium rectifiers and were found on police cars and fire trucks.
Neither alternators nor generators use permanent magnets as would a little motor found in say a tool or a toy. So they rely on a "field" or electric magnet to provide the magnitism needed to make electricity. In a generator the field coils are stationary and the output is made in the spinning coil-the armature. But in the alternator the field rotates as the armiture does in a generator and the output is made in the stationary coils called the stator. The brushes in an alternator need only carry current necessary to energize the rotating field via a slip ring, whereas in the generator the brushes need to handle the entire output.
So to your question, what is the difference as it relates to the voltage regulator? Remember that diodes allow current to pass in only one direction, so when the car is not running or running so slow that alternator output falls below battery voltage the diodes prevent the battery from discharging through the alternator.
But in a generator there are no diodes to do this, so instead the voltage regulator has a third element in it that regulators used with alternators don't have-a circuit breaker or "cutout" as they were called in the Flintstone era. The cutout opens when the generator output falls below battery voltage. That is why a voltage regulator used with a generator is physically larger for that third element.
While there are miriad solid state replacement regulators for alternators to my knowledge no one attempted this replacement for voltage regulators that use "cutouts." The firm mentioned above is the only one I'm aware of.
Sorry for the long post. It's too hot to do anything else and useless information is one thing I have too much of.
Dan
Auto generators do this with a comutator which is essentially a rotary switch that switches the windings back and forth so that the brushes can "conduct" DC off the armature. The comutator is fitted to the end of the armature and the brushes ride on it.
Auto alternators became possible for use in cars when solid state diodes became inexpensive enough to use. The diodes, which allow current to pass in only one direction, replaced the spinning comutator and brushes which had the handicap of having to transmit the entire generator output from the spinning comutator to the car electrical system. Generator capacity had been limited in its ouitput because of this until the alternator arrived in many A/C equiped GM cars for 62. Previous to that alternators used externally mounted selenium rectifiers and were found on police cars and fire trucks.
Neither alternators nor generators use permanent magnets as would a little motor found in say a tool or a toy. So they rely on a "field" or electric magnet to provide the magnitism needed to make electricity. In a generator the field coils are stationary and the output is made in the spinning coil-the armature. But in the alternator the field rotates as the armiture does in a generator and the output is made in the stationary coils called the stator. The brushes in an alternator need only carry current necessary to energize the rotating field via a slip ring, whereas in the generator the brushes need to handle the entire output.
So to your question, what is the difference as it relates to the voltage regulator? Remember that diodes allow current to pass in only one direction, so when the car is not running or running so slow that alternator output falls below battery voltage the diodes prevent the battery from discharging through the alternator.
But in a generator there are no diodes to do this, so instead the voltage regulator has a third element in it that regulators used with alternators don't have-a circuit breaker or "cutout" as they were called in the Flintstone era. The cutout opens when the generator output falls below battery voltage. That is why a voltage regulator used with a generator is physically larger for that third element.
While there are miriad solid state replacement regulators for alternators to my knowledge no one attempted this replacement for voltage regulators that use "cutouts." The firm mentioned above is the only one I'm aware of.
Sorry for the long post. It's too hot to do anything else and useless information is one thing I have too much of.
Dan
Last edited by dplotkin; Jul 6, 2013 at 09:32 AM.
Tech Contributor
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,575
Likes: 118
From: Conroe Texas
A regulator for a 62 and earlier corvette must be converted by a craftsman, as those parts are not sold over the counter in a solid state form yet.
The mass production for the alternator-associated regulators versus the hand-crafting of the generator-associated regulators, surely is the source of the price difference.
Cruising
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Ok got it thx For explaining it. Why i am asking all the questions. Is the other day I went to start my car when it was hot and it wouldn't crank Then I put it on the battery charger and it cranks just fine. So I am suspecting the voltage regulator or the generator. Got some info on testing procedures will see what the problem is pat
Last edited by fireofficer001; Jul 6, 2013 at 10:38 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 58,061
Likes: 7,144
Army
A multi-meter across the battery terminals set to the 20V DC scale while cranking and running will tell you volumes. I'm assuming this is part of the procedures for testing you've found.
The fella that makes the Wilton conversion (invented it really) was 92 years old when I got mine a few years back. If you want one I wouldn't wait too long. I'm just sayin'
The fella that makes the Wilton conversion (invented it really) was 92 years old when I got mine a few years back. If you want one I wouldn't wait too long. I'm just sayin'
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 58,061
Likes: 7,144
Army
If my original C1 V/R had kept going all along I wouldn't have bothered....but it got squirrley on me and so I tried adjusting it and could never get it right....bought a repro and it was worse. The procedure to adjust is simple so I doubt I got it wrong. So I contacted Wilton Electronics and worked through doing their 1st C1 generator solid state conversion. I put it in and literally have not touched it in 4 years. It was like $85 so I even bought a spare....well worth it IMO.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,897
Likes: 1,353
From: Santa Ana CA
With out writing a paper on it I'll try to explain. Alternators and generators are both generators, the difference between them has to do with how each converts AC current, which all generators and alternators make initially, into DC current necessary to charge a battery and operate DC designed componentry.
Auto generators do this with a comutator which is essentially a rotary switch that switches the windings back and forth so that the brushes can "conduct" DC off the armature. The comutator is fitted to the end of the armature and the brushes ride on it.
Auto alternators became possible for use in cars when solid state diodes became inexpensive enough to use. The diodes, which allow current to pass in only one direction, replaced the spinning comutator and brushes which had the handicap of having to transmit the entire generator output from the spinning comutator to the car electrical system. Generator capacity had been limited in its ouitput because of this until the alternator arrived in many A/C equiped GM cars for 62. Previous to that alternators used externally mounted selenium rectifiers and were found on police cars and fire trucks.
Neither alternators nor generators use permanent magnets as would a little motor found in say a tool or a toy. So they rely on a "field" or electric magnet to provide the magnitism needed to make electricity. In a generator the field coils are stationary and the output is made in the spinning coil-the armature. But in the alternator the field rotates as the armiture does in a generator and the output is made in the stationary coils called the stator. The brushes in an alternator need only carry current necessary to energize the rotating field via a slip ring, whereas in the generator the brushes need to handle the entire output.
So to your question, what is the difference as it relates to the voltage regulator? Remember that diodes allow current to pass in only one direction, so when the car is not running or running so slow that alternator output falls below battery voltage the diodes prevent the battery from discharging through the alternator.
But in a generator there are no diodes to do this, so instead the voltage regulator has a third element in it that regulators used with alternators don't have-a circuit breaker or "cutout" as they were called in the Flintstone era. The cutout opens when the generator output falls below battery voltage. That is why a voltage regulator used with a generator is physically larger for that third element.
While there are miriad solid state replacement regulators for alternators to my knowledge no one attempted this replacement for voltage regulators that use "cutouts." The firm mentioned above is the only one I'm aware of.
Sorry for the long post. It's too hot to do anything else and useless information is one thing I have too much of.
Dan
Auto generators do this with a comutator which is essentially a rotary switch that switches the windings back and forth so that the brushes can "conduct" DC off the armature. The comutator is fitted to the end of the armature and the brushes ride on it.
Auto alternators became possible for use in cars when solid state diodes became inexpensive enough to use. The diodes, which allow current to pass in only one direction, replaced the spinning comutator and brushes which had the handicap of having to transmit the entire generator output from the spinning comutator to the car electrical system. Generator capacity had been limited in its ouitput because of this until the alternator arrived in many A/C equiped GM cars for 62. Previous to that alternators used externally mounted selenium rectifiers and were found on police cars and fire trucks.
Neither alternators nor generators use permanent magnets as would a little motor found in say a tool or a toy. So they rely on a "field" or electric magnet to provide the magnitism needed to make electricity. In a generator the field coils are stationary and the output is made in the spinning coil-the armature. But in the alternator the field rotates as the armiture does in a generator and the output is made in the stationary coils called the stator. The brushes in an alternator need only carry current necessary to energize the rotating field via a slip ring, whereas in the generator the brushes need to handle the entire output.
So to your question, what is the difference as it relates to the voltage regulator? Remember that diodes allow current to pass in only one direction, so when the car is not running or running so slow that alternator output falls below battery voltage the diodes prevent the battery from discharging through the alternator.
But in a generator there are no diodes to do this, so instead the voltage regulator has a third element in it that regulators used with alternators don't have-a circuit breaker or "cutout" as they were called in the Flintstone era. The cutout opens when the generator output falls below battery voltage. That is why a voltage regulator used with a generator is physically larger for that third element.
While there are miriad solid state replacement regulators for alternators to my knowledge no one attempted this replacement for voltage regulators that use "cutouts." The firm mentioned above is the only one I'm aware of.
Sorry for the long post. It's too hot to do anything else and useless information is one thing I have too much of.
Dan
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Racer
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With out writing a paper on it I'll try to explain. Alternators and generators are both generators, the difference between them has to do with how each converts AC current, which all generators and alternators make initially, into DC current necessary to charge a battery and operate DC designed componentry.
Auto generators do this with a comutator which is essentially a rotary switch that switches the windings back and forth so that the brushes can "conduct" DC off the armature. The comutator is fitted to the end of the armature and the brushes ride on it.
Auto alternators became possible for use in cars when solid state diodes became inexpensive enough to use. The diodes, which allow current to pass in only one direction, replaced the spinning comutator and brushes which had the handicap of having to transmit the entire generator output from the spinning comutator to the car electrical system. Generator capacity had been limited in its ouitput because of this until the alternator arrived in many A/C equiped GM cars for 62. Previous to that alternators used externally mounted selenium rectifiers and were found on police cars and fire trucks.
Neither alternators nor generators use permanent magnets as would a little motor found in say a tool or a toy. So they rely on a "field" or electric magnet to provide the magnitism needed to make electricity. In a generator the field coils are stationary and the output is made in the spinning coil-the armature. But in the alternator the field rotates as the armiture does in a generator and the output is made in the stationary coils called the stator. The brushes in an alternator need only carry current necessary to energize the rotating field via a slip ring, whereas in the generator the brushes need to handle the entire output.
So to your question, what is the difference as it relates to the voltage regulator? Remember that diodes allow current to pass in only one direction, so when the car is not running or running so slow that alternator output falls below battery voltage the diodes prevent the battery from discharging through the alternator.
But in a generator there are no diodes to do this, so instead the voltage regulator has a third element in it that regulators used with alternators don't have-a circuit breaker or "cutout" as they were called in the Flintstone era. The cutout opens when the generator output falls below battery voltage. That is why a voltage regulator used with a generator is physically larger for that third element.
While there are miriad solid state replacement regulators for alternators to my knowledge no one attempted this replacement for voltage regulators that use "cutouts." The firm mentioned above is the only one I'm aware of.
Sorry for the long post. It's too hot to do anything else and useless information is one thing I have too much of.
Dan
Auto generators do this with a comutator which is essentially a rotary switch that switches the windings back and forth so that the brushes can "conduct" DC off the armature. The comutator is fitted to the end of the armature and the brushes ride on it.
Auto alternators became possible for use in cars when solid state diodes became inexpensive enough to use. The diodes, which allow current to pass in only one direction, replaced the spinning comutator and brushes which had the handicap of having to transmit the entire generator output from the spinning comutator to the car electrical system. Generator capacity had been limited in its ouitput because of this until the alternator arrived in many A/C equiped GM cars for 62. Previous to that alternators used externally mounted selenium rectifiers and were found on police cars and fire trucks.
Neither alternators nor generators use permanent magnets as would a little motor found in say a tool or a toy. So they rely on a "field" or electric magnet to provide the magnitism needed to make electricity. In a generator the field coils are stationary and the output is made in the spinning coil-the armature. But in the alternator the field rotates as the armiture does in a generator and the output is made in the stationary coils called the stator. The brushes in an alternator need only carry current necessary to energize the rotating field via a slip ring, whereas in the generator the brushes need to handle the entire output.
So to your question, what is the difference as it relates to the voltage regulator? Remember that diodes allow current to pass in only one direction, so when the car is not running or running so slow that alternator output falls below battery voltage the diodes prevent the battery from discharging through the alternator.
But in a generator there are no diodes to do this, so instead the voltage regulator has a third element in it that regulators used with alternators don't have-a circuit breaker or "cutout" as they were called in the Flintstone era. The cutout opens when the generator output falls below battery voltage. That is why a voltage regulator used with a generator is physically larger for that third element.
While there are miriad solid state replacement regulators for alternators to my knowledge no one attempted this replacement for voltage regulators that use "cutouts." The firm mentioned above is the only one I'm aware of.
Sorry for the long post. It's too hot to do anything else and useless information is one thing I have too much of.
Dan
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2012
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From: Western Massachusetts
2024 C2 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
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Dan
Cruising
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
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Ok guy great info thanks to all. Dpi.tkin. Real good info and fink great job I email the guy for the conversion. 85 dollars I'm in. With this heat wave going on here just got in having a few bud limes reading up on testing the car with the volt meter. Buy the way is it easy to put my car up on this site. Photo. Buy the way The info here is great
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,599
Likes: 622
From: Coldwater MI
I know some race cars use permanent magnet alternators: http://www.racemate.com/ . But at 32 amps it wouldn't be great for a production vehicle. Looks pretty much like a motorcycle stator. They probably use a bike type regulator/rectifier too: http://www.electrosport.com/technica...g-system-works
Cruising
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Ok check the battery with key on got 12.6.volts Motor running 11.96. So read a post on Alternator Operation and Testing by joe fisher. But is the testing the same with a generator ? If its different anyone have the info. Thx pat
Tech Contributor
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,575
Likes: 118
From: Conroe Texas
The testing is different. I'm posting.this from my phone, I can point you to some threads with generator/regulator test procedures in a couple of hours when I return to my computer.
Tech Contributor
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,575
Likes: 118
From: Conroe Texas
Here are two sets of test instructions I saved from the noted threads
Testing Generator #1
Testing Generator #2
All credit to 1snake and ls6racer who posted those instructions in the linked threads
Testing Generator #1
- The easiest and best way to check output AND rule out the volt. reg. is to disconnect all the wires from the generator
- Hook a volt meter to the arm. terminal (brown wire) and start the car. You should have between 2-6 volts.
- Now ground the field terminal (blue wire) and you should get over 15 volts when you rev. the engine.
- If you do, you have a bad regulator (assuming your wiring is okay). If you don't, you have a bad generator. Simple as that.
Testing Generator #2
- Assuming the wiring is all good including grounds etc.
- Get a voltmeter and connect it to the battery.
- Remove the Blue field wire 'F' from the generator.
- Start engine. run at about 1200 - 1800 rpm.
- With another test jumper wire connected to the 'F' termial on the generator;
- Momentarily connect the test jumper to engine ground (block or head etc.)
- Watch the voltmeter.
- If the voltage goes up to 13 to 18 or so volts; the regulator is the likely problem.
All credit to 1snake and ls6racer who posted those instructions in the linked threads
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 58,061
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Army
The generator and V/R tests are in the Passenger Car Manual for your year vehicle. Its a good investment if you don't already have this document.
A solid state V/R won't help if your generator is belly up and it could be something as simple as a brush replacement. No biggee.
A solid state V/R won't help if your generator is belly up and it could be something as simple as a brush replacement. No biggee.
Cruising
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
The generator and V/R tests are in the Passenger Car Manual for your year vehicle. Its a good investment if you don't already have this document.
A solid state V/R won't help if your generator is belly up and it could be something as simple as a brush replacement. No biggee.
A solid state V/R won't help if your generator is belly up and it could be something as simple as a brush replacement. No biggee.