I have a major issue on my hands. My 1960 is 98% complete and I took it to a local shop for alignment. This is a specialty shop that works primarily on vintage autos/muscle cars. Very competent people with a great reputation. He worked on setting the caster and camber on the car and cannot get the alignment into specs. The toe-in is fine. He took measurements and went over the frame etc to see if something was bent or odd. All looks fine. He also said that recently he had a 58 in with a similar issue, but he was able to get it closer than on my car. Since, it sounds like I'm not the first person with this problem, I'm betting someone out there has some ideas on what to do. Help!

Also, the car runs rich. The carbs have been cleaned and rebuilt (2x4 Carter WCFB's). The mechanic who did the alignment checked the jets and he said they are the appropriate jets but the car loads up at idle. It's a 283 bored .30 over with a Crane solid lifter cam (adjusts at 30/32). Any ideas? I have no idea of the history on the carbs and the car hasn't run for 42 years until I got a hold of it. For sure the carbs are not what the car came with as the intake is a stock 2x4 but it has been polished. I'm thinking the car was a pretty basic model when new. It probably came with a single 4 Carter. It's had 3 owners before me and each dinked around with it a little and lost interest.

 

What couldn't he get in, caster, or camber?

They are both related on these cars.

if he couldn't get caster in, do you have the 2* alum angle shims installed between the cross member and frame?

Some cars require two sets of shims.

if he couldn't get camber in, you spindle supports may be bent.

Or, he may not have a clue how to adjust caster/camber and simply said he couldn't get it in, because there are no shims used, like on later cars.


I have had more than one shop tell me to open the hood so they could adj the alignment. They didn't believe me, and treated me like a moron when i told them it was all done from underneath.

Doug

 

Do a search under DZAUTO (Tom Parsons). I recall a thread where shims were added under the inner shafts of the lower control arms to achieve the desired camber.

With that being said, how does the car drive?? I did my own alignment and even though I could not achieve the perfect camber / caster spec wise, (toe is perfect though), the car drives beautifully and the steering wheel is dead straight going down the road so I don't worry about the numbers beyond what I can adjust. Pilot Dan

 

Thanks for the reply. I think shims may be part of the answer. The toe in is perfect but camber/caster is off. I drives "okay" and goes down the road straight but the tires squeal a little and it just doesn't feel very precise. The wheel is straight and not a lot of play in the wheel. However, I do not have a reference point to know what is normal. The last C 1 ( a 1959) I drove was in 1963. And for the last 10+ years I've been driving a 1974 MGB with very precise steering and rail like cornering (after years of tinkering). I'm definitely going to check on the shim issue. Thanks again for the reply.

 

First thing to check on the carbs is that the choke is pulling completely off when they are warmed up. Take the air cleaner off at operating temperature and insure the rear carb's choke valve is vertical.

Next - make sure the mixture is probably set at all 4 screws. I usually go for the steadiest, highest vacuum at specified idle speed and then lean out the mixture by turning each screw about 1/16 of a turn to the lean side.

Check your fuel pump pressure. Overly high pressure can nudge the needle valves off their seat and raise the floats and cause rich conditions.

Those are some places to start.

 

I appreciate the ideas. I absolutely have faith in the alignment guy. He knew all the ins and outs of the car and has a great reputation for dealing with cars like mine. That being said, he did not mention shims. The toe in is spot on but caster and camber are both off. I did not assemble the front end, that was done at some earlier point in it's life. From all that I had to redo, the previous owners may have left them off. Any specific things to look for regarding shims? I will have to look on the car and see whether or not they are there. How can I tell if the spindle supports are bent?
Can't tell you how much I appreciate the reply - it's tough to diagnose some problems with no reference points or experience with a particular model. It's taken me 18 months of very concentrated work to complete this car, but I've learned enough about a C1 that I bet I could take 6 months off the time if I did it again. A friend gave me a cartoon that shows a fellow working on a Vette and yelling, "It's a Hobby, It's a Hobby!" I have to look at it for inspiration sometimes.

 

Frankie,
Thanks, the choke is working as mentioned (fully open when warm). I will check the fuel pump pressure. The lean mixture was checked and adjusted. Floats were also checked but as far as a I know not the fuel pump pressure. Thanks again.

 

Post the alignment specs he set it to, then maybe we will know where to point you.

You can see the shims, as tapered spacers between the frame rails,and the crossmember where it bolts to the frame. They are maybe 1/4" thick at the rear and1/16"- 3/32" thick at the front.

Doug

 

The lower control arm shims, were not to the best of my knowledge ever installed on the line originally so you are not likely to find them on your car. You would add them by loosening the lower control arm shaft attaching bolts and inserting the shims as needed between the shaft and the cross member and then securing all the bolts to proper torque.

 

The outer control arm bushings may have been installed improperly.

Look at the upper and lower part of the steering knuckle where the outer bushings pass through the control arm outer ends.

The space on either side of the knuckle end should be equal on both sides.

Is he adjusting the upper shaft using the 1/4" Allen wrench?

Rich

 

Also check the upper and lower wishbone inner bushing are installeld equal on both sides they will affact camber and caster . aim for .5 to 1.5 caster and around zero camber for radial tyres.

 

In thinking about your carb issues, I also have duals on my '59 270hp. Long ago when I first got the car, I had similar issues of loading up at idle. You could see a very rich mixture at idle with fuel actually dripping out the venturiis, then so much fuel when you hit the throttle it was like a waterfall out of them.

The primary carb was checked and it was not the correct carb. It was a '57 single four carb mounted on a dual four manifold. We changed the jets and metering rods. I actually had a machine shop make some new primary jets and we experimented until we got it leaner. Much better.

A few years later, I acquired a correct primary carb, with correct body, base, and top. All was well, and it looked better too as the air cleaner layed flat due to now having the correct thin base on the primary. The thick base on the old carb tilts the air cleaner forward.

I'd be curious to know how the mechaic verified your carbs' jets. You have to take the top cover off to see them, and know what the Carter part numbers are. Somewhere here I have the part #'s of the jets and metering rod #'s. Did he record the numbers from your carb?

Below are pics of a different carb, but shows the location of jets and rods part numbers.

Rich

 

I am a little confused with this statement. You claim the toe is perfect but yet the tires squeal.
IIRC the camber/caster does not cause the tires to squeal, only toe.
Camber is the tilt of the tire, caster controls how the cars tracks and steering wheel returns after making a turn and toe-in is the tires turned in or out from a straight-ahead position.
Please post the alignment figures so we can accurately access the problem.
Joe

 

Good points Joe. But what if the camber is so far tilted out that the the tire, especially if bias ply 6.70x15's, is making noise? Just thinkin' out loud.

The other thing I'm wondering, is what if some one changed the knuckle, on one side only, and put in the shorter profile passenger car part on. One is high, one is low?

Rich

 

Thanks - I will check the measurements. For sure he is doing the adjustment properly (1/4 inch Allen wrench).

 

Here are the measurements (I'll try to duplicate the print out information):

Total Toe: +0.00

Caster Before -0.66 After -0.39 Before -1.69 After -1.38
Camber Before -1.44 After -1.01 Before +1.50 After +1.04

SAI Before +6.23 After +5.71 Before +7.83 After +8.06

Set Back Before +0.29 After +0.35

Hope this helps. Thanks again.

 

I think you are missing the taper shims.

With that much neg caster, you probably want two shims per side.

If you can't bring the camber in, i would look for something being bent, even the front cross member.

I have run into, in the past, "alignment shops", that couldn't find the adjustments, and wanted to put the thing on a frame machine and bend the frame to achieve alignment, this happened on both my '61, and an '82 Z28 (Macpherson strut) i had, when it was real new.

They told me that there weren't any adjustments and the frame needed to be bent to bring it into alignment.

Of course, i found other shops after producing the service manuals on both cars and pointing out they were ignorant, maybe your car went to a butcher shop, once..


Doug

 

Those are not good numbers. Even with relation of left to right readings (Camber).

I'd like to see as much + positive Caster as possible on each side. Looks like yours is negative on each side If I am reading your numbers right.

Camber should be close to 0* and I like 1/16 total toe in for radials which I assume you are running.

If you can't get some positive caster, you have a problem. In which direction are the tops of your spindles (where the upper outer control arm bushings are) oriented, towards the front of the car or the back??
They should be oriented rearwards

 

They are pointed towards the back. Will shims help my problem?

 

If they are full back then that's the best you will do with Caster, the Camber can be improved with shims however.