C2 Radiator replacement
Former Vendor
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,593
Likes: 631
From: Brighton
I think by now the majority of people accept the fact switching from a cooper radiator to an aluminum radiator is an upgrade. So in this case, switching from a factory aluminum radiator to a copper one must be a downgrade.
The people that tell me the copper worked for them usuually live somewhere like Canada or Maine, where the ambient temperatures don't exceed 80 degrees.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 31,797
Likes: 2,396
From: Middle TN by way of KY, OH, VA, IL, CA, FL, NY, SC, HI
No advances that I know of and I do this for a living. If I could improve our performance I would. That would give me an advantage over the competition.
I think by now the majority of people accept the fact switching from a cooper radiator to an aluminum radiator is an upgrade. So in this case, switching from a factory aluminum radiator to a copper one must be a downgrade.
The people that tell me the copper worked for them usuually live somewhere like Canada or Maine, where the ambient temperatures don't exceed 80 degrees.
I think by now the majority of people accept the fact switching from a cooper radiator to an aluminum radiator is an upgrade. So in this case, switching from a factory aluminum radiator to a copper one must be a downgrade.
The people that tell me the copper worked for them usuually live somewhere like Canada or Maine, where the ambient temperatures don't exceed 80 degrees.
However, if you could settle a bet, I would appreciate it. Copper has a higher thermal conductivity than aluminum. That is a fact of science. Of course aluminum has a price advantage over copper.
But given the material properties of copper, why is an aluminum radiator better? Not saying that it isn't FWIW, just wondering why it is?
Thanks
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
Has the OP ever mentioned whether his temperatures are stop/go or highway.
For reference, I have a copper radiator in my '65. It doesn't cool like the OEM radiator did when new but stop/go in 90* heat gives me about 205*. Back on the road and moving, the temp drops back down to 180*.
90* stop/go in a coupe is too hot for me to be in anyway.
For reference, I have a copper radiator in my '65. It doesn't cool like the OEM radiator did when new but stop/go in 90* heat gives me about 205*. Back on the road and moving, the temp drops back down to 180*.
90* stop/go in a coupe is too hot for me to be in anyway.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,937
Likes: 163
From: OP Kansas
C2 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
Sir, as your radiators appear to be the "gold" standard (play on metals there), I would never disagree with you, and if I am need of one, yours are tops on my list.
However, if you could settle a bet, I would appreciate it. Copper has a higher thermal conductivity than aluminum. That is a fact of science. Of course aluminum has a price advantage over copper.
But given the material properties of copper, why is an aluminum radiator better? Not saying that it isn't FWIW, just wondering why it is?
Thanks
However, if you could settle a bet, I would appreciate it. Copper has a higher thermal conductivity than aluminum. That is a fact of science. Of course aluminum has a price advantage over copper.
But given the material properties of copper, why is an aluminum radiator better? Not saying that it isn't FWIW, just wondering why it is?
Thanks
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 38,897
Likes: 1,926
From: Washington Michigan
Copper has a higher thermal conductivity than aluminum. That is a fact of science. Of course aluminum has a price advantage over copper.
But given the material properties of copper, why is an aluminum radiator better? Not saying that it isn't FWIW, just wondering why it is?
But given the material properties of copper, why is an aluminum radiator better? Not saying that it isn't FWIW, just wondering why it is?
Former Vendor
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,593
Likes: 631
From: Brighton
Around 35 years ago, auto engineers understood that if you created more tube-to-fin contact you would increase cooling. You could do this two ways, 1) wider tubes 2) shorter fin providing more tubes in a given area. The problem with doing this with copper is all that added material added a significant amount of weight. So they switched to aluminum for the wieght advantage. It is really more about design than material. The cooling advantage of wider/closer tubes outweighs the difference on thermal conductivity.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 31,797
Likes: 2,396
From: Middle TN by way of KY, OH, VA, IL, CA, FL, NY, SC, HI
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,411
Likes: 1,216
From: Glen Allen VA
Worked for one of the worlds largest aluminum companies for 30 years. The only reason aluminum is used is weight savings. Cu is easier to fab, repair, and corrodes less, but it's simply heavy. The thermal advantages of Cu are simply not great enough to overcome the weight savings, even from a larger aluminum one to remove the same heat. I've been retired for a few years, but I'm guessing the cost factor has reversed and Cu will likely cost more for raw materials now than aluminum. Didn't use to be that way.
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Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: Maine
I ended up buying the nearly new copper/brass radiator (as described to me) from forum member "Rtruman". Very nice price, excellent communication and he accepted a personal check and didn't wait for check to clear before shipping so in my book, this guy is as good as they get. Thanks RT 
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,528
Likes: 444
I ended up buying the nearly new copper/brass radiator (as described to me) from forum member "Rtruman". Very nice price, excellent communication and he accepted a personal check and didn't wait for check to clear before shipping so in my book, this guy is as good as they get. Thanks RT
I have gotten help from these guys thru the years. Its true what goes around comes around, Thanks for the beer.
Last edited by rtruman; Jul 17, 2015 at 10:52 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 194
From: East Coast
I ended up buying the nearly new copper/brass radiator (as described to me) from forum member "Rtruman". Very nice price, excellent communication and he accepted a personal check and didn't wait for check to clear before shipping so in my book, this guy is as good as they get. Thanks RT
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,276
Likes: 2,138
From: Bowling Green, Kentucky
Although thermal conductivity of the tube material plays a role in the OVERALL HEAT TRANSFER COEFFICIENT for this system, it is not significant between the two metals. The significant part of this OVERALL coefficient is heat transfer between the air and the tube metal. Improvements in this area pay the biggest dividends in performance.
Some supplemental info to add to Tom and JohnZ comments.
Larry
Some supplemental info to add to Tom and JohnZ comments.
Larry
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 31,797
Likes: 2,396
From: Middle TN by way of KY, OH, VA, IL, CA, FL, NY, SC, HI
Although thermal conductivity of the tube material plays a role in the OVERALL HEAT TRANSFER COEFFICIENT for this system, it is not significant between the two metals. The significant part of this OVERALL coefficient is heat transfer between the air and the tube metal. Improvements in this area pay the biggest dividends in performance.
Some supplemental info to add to Tom and JohnZ comments.
Larry
Some supplemental info to add to Tom and JohnZ comments.
Larry
Q = mc (Th-Tc) or Q = UA (Th-Tc)
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,276
Likes: 2,138
From: Bowling Green, Kentucky
Pretty much............for heat transfer equipment, the DELTA T above is actually DELTA T ln mean (natural log mean).
U = overall heat transfer coefficient is comprised of a number of different/separate individual coefficients, one of which includes the thermal conductivity of the metal of the heat exchanger tube wall.
The POINT here being that the heat transfer rate from air stream to the tube wall basically sets the U number in our case. Yes, tube material matters, but in our case not much. However, radiator construction and fin design matter a whole lot.
Larry
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,411
Likes: 1,216
From: Glen Allen VA
Pretty much............for heat transfer equipment, the DELTA T above is actually DELTA T ln mean (natural log mean).
U = overall heat transfer coefficient is comprised of a number of different/separate individual coefficients, one of which includes the thermal conductivity of the metal of the heat exchanger tube wall.
The POINT here being that the heat transfer rate from air stream to the tube wall basically sets the U number in our case. Yes, tube material matters, but in our case not much. However, radiator construction and fin design matter a whole lot.
Larry
U = overall heat transfer coefficient is comprised of a number of different/separate individual coefficients, one of which includes the thermal conductivity of the metal of the heat exchanger tube wall.
The POINT here being that the heat transfer rate from air stream to the tube wall basically sets the U number in our case. Yes, tube material matters, but in our case not much. However, radiator construction and fin design matter a whole lot.
Larry
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,276
Likes: 2,138
From: Bowling Green, Kentucky
At what level do you want to converse?? Some things require more than "torque to 25 ft-lbs" or "replace with this part number".
I've been turning wrenches and repairing/modifying these cars for over 55 years. I know fiberglass, paint, and grease as well as just about anyone here. I simply responded to Rhino's question with some technical data. Sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to read.
Larry
I've been turning wrenches and repairing/modifying these cars for over 55 years. I know fiberglass, paint, and grease as well as just about anyone here. I simply responded to Rhino's question with some technical data. Sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to read.
Larry
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,118
Likes: 1,874
From: Greenville, Indiana
At what level do you want to converse?? Some things require more than "torque to 25 ft-lbs" or "replace with this part number".
I've been turning wrenches and repairing/modifying these cars for over 55 years. I know fiberglass, paint, and grease as well as just about anyone here. I simply responded to Rhino's question with some technical data. Sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to read.
Larry
I've been turning wrenches and repairing/modifying these cars for over 55 years. I know fiberglass, paint, and grease as well as just about anyone here. I simply responded to Rhino's question with some technical data. Sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to read.
Larry