I'm a little biased but I think the NCRS judging is about as good as it gets. btw-My NCRS number has only 3 digits. I was a member before we let those SWC cars into the organization.

First, everything is fully documented. NCRS has the best documentation on the planet. Some groups (i.e. Porsche Club of America) have no documentation at all. You can imagine how that ends up.

Second, NCRS never pits one car against the other. It's conceivable that a number of cars could win the top award. And that often happens. Your car is judged against a standard - not your neighbors car.

I suggest that one of the very first things you do after buying your Corvette is have it judged at an NCRS regional event. Do that before you spend your first dollar on restoration. You need to know what you actually have before you try to correct things.

You also need to know who's making the correct parts for your car. The NCRS judges will know that and they're more than happy to share that information with you.

Richard Newton
Does a Restoration Ever Stop?

 

That's a pretty good, common sense analogy. However, I wonder if the persons serving as inspectors or judges are always cognizant of it?

 

Frank the 63 manual is a very sore subject with some long time members Last time I judged a 63 I found errors and I am far from a 63 expert

 

I deleted my last post Keith - I realized it had devolved into ranting and yes, the 63 Judging Guide is messy.

The NCRS site as I write has some heated debates about correct water pump numbers and whether 63 AC fuel pumps have four screws in the bottom (I've sure never seen one.)

BACK ON TOPIC: If you 'hate' your car because you didn't win some award, or, modified it to a higher standard in pursuing some award -- you need therapy.....the very concept is silly to me.

 

It's not at all difficult to find errors in the 63 manual. There's at least one on almost every page. Sad.

 

Could not have said it better.

My experience with NCRS is mostly good. I've had one car judged but it was a mostly original car, not one I had restored. I plan to have mine judged after restoration but I am not going for points. Some points are not worth earning (like original tires, as an example).

My biggest disappointment is when the original standard becomes unrealistic and somewhat unproven. It is a constant learning experience for everyone involved, including those doing the judging. The term "judge" is not really appropriate in my view.

 

Yes, you get your blue ribbon for fixing that plug up the way the book says to do it and then you find out after hours and hours of labor and $K's in parts and you find out all really should have gotten was a red or yellow ribbon due to the inaccurate restoration.

Might not be the car I'd be PO'd at but I'd be PO'd at something/somebody.

 

I haven't read all the replies to the OP post. That said, there are more reasons to enjoy having your car gone over by a Team of Experts. I've been a corvette guy for over fifty years and have done just about everything you might imagine with and too these cars. My personal 67 coupe was a Base car when bought in 1972 for $1700. I added just about every OEM option available through the years including A/C. I once had my car Judged by a local NCRS Chapter just to see if they might find something done incorrectly. Not for Ego or anything, I just was curious if I missed anything or did a sloppy job anywhere. Al W.

 

If you do it per the JG you won't get dinged. Even tho you might not agree with it.

 

I agree but sometimes judges are going on their memory, so make sure you have your JG with you for reference.

 

If I ever get my '72 judged, it will be for that reason.

To find out what isn't correct, that i don't know about.

I already know the tires, battery, and water pump isn't correct, and it has a wrong year carb, and wrong year starter. And yeah, I put cast LT-1valve covers on it because they look better than the stamped steel ones.

As long as I get a list of what isn't correct, i would consider judging an inexpensive critique of the car. I can use that info as I see fit, later.

Edit: Sometimes it just takes another pair of eyes, someone who doesn't see you car everyday, to find simple things you over looked and are inexpensive to fix, like the zip tie on the vacuum hoses you got so used to looking at, you ignore it...

Doug

 

Sad that so many people are sick enough to pursue NCRS awards when a vintage car can be so much better and more fun to drive with only a few tasteful, subtle but effective modifications. A NCRS restored car in most cases is not driven, since driving a car quickly deteriorates it away from "factory" condition and the owner of such a car is deluded into believing that it will be worth a fortune some day. Sad.

Besides, NCRS is not for everybody:

 

But if you do it per the 63 JG, and there a lot of errors in it that the TL refuses to correct, what good is a certificate?

 

You gotta be kidding. You're comparing NCRS to the *****?

 

A friend of mine had his 72 judged a couple of years ago. He's owned the car since 73 and bought it with 8K miles. Got dinged because the rear alarm lock had a bezel. The rear of the car is untouched since new and we have found a few others with a bezel as well. The way to fix this problem was to remove the part that was placed there by the factory. Judging is not for everyone.

 

Nothing keeping you from getting judged with upgrades - my Vintage Air A/C will stay in my '63. A few others that the judging should miss that I won't talk about here...

All you naysayers, if you wanted to develop a standard to preserve how these cars were originally (even if it had its faults) what would you choose ? Nothing ? Then that alternative will allow the 'as built' perception of factory configuration to 'drift' over time except perhaps for a very few, pristine survivors...

I've spent a career lifetime in configuration management of fighter aircraft and software baselines. Its a helluva lot more complicated than most can appreciate.
And once you "lose the bubble"; its lost and usually for good.

BTW - you actually get 'points' for driving your car to an NCRS judging event and there are lenient guidelines for chassis cleanliness too as the desire is that, yes, the cars are used as intended. And, I've seen some youngish people recently at NCRS events - there were at least two guys in their 30's/40's at the Howie-in-the-Hills chapter judging last year and the year before.

Having said that I think the deductions for some safety items is excessive; I'm not hitting the street with T3 headlights and bias-ply tires.

 

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Categorizing the people who pursue NCRS awards as "sick" speaks much more about you than it does them. And your information is wrong . . . the vast majority of "NCRS restored" (there is no such thing) cars - I will assume you meant cars restored to NCRS standards, and/or intended to be NCRS judged - are in fact driven. Most collectors understand that part of the process of properly preserving even a million-dollar Duesenberg entails driving it occasionally.

And I think you will find that your definition of ". . .a few tasteful, subtle but effective modifications" may differ substantially from everyone else's. In the end, it's your car, and it's your choice. It's not necessary or constructive to criticize anyone else's choices - if they choose to invest their time and money in attaining a 100% factory-correct restoration of their Corvette, isn't that their business as well? I can assure you that most NCRS members are not in it for the money, despite what you believe. Many have much more invested in their cars than they could sell it for - and they know that. That isn't why they do it at all. They enjoy the challenge of the process, the hunt for parts, the camaraderie of like-minded enthusiasts, the experience of the shows . . . they like every damned thing about owning their cars.

As, I suspect, do you. I know that the NCRS has often been categorized as a bunch of old elitist white men who look down their noses at any Corvette not pristinely restored to their standards. There are almost certainly some members like that out there, just like there are members of Rat Rod clubs who disdain anything with paint on it - but in both cases they are the exception rather than the rule. The members of NCRS I have had the good fortune to meet have without exception been courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. Their interest and overall reason for existing is to ensure that our favorite car has an established set of standards stating what is factory correct and what is not, in order that future generations don't mistakenly believe that C2's came from the factory with six tail lights, or that kids no longer know what a correct 6-cylinder/Powerglide car looks, sounds and drives like.

Are those things important? Yes, I think they are. Does that mean no one can or should ever drop a V-8 into a 1954 Corvette? No, of course not. Did it myself back in 1972, shoving a Buick 401 nailhead into a clapped-out '54 and driving the HELL out of it until it literally fell to pieces. You see, most of us just enjoy cars. ALL cars. Just not all of us like the same ones at the same time.

So no, it is neither sick nor sad that the NCRS exists and that there are individuals willing and able to pursue the highest accolades of that group. A rising tide raises all boats - and the fact that so much knowledge and information will be preserved and handed down for posterity in the form of rolling, driving automobiles that future generations can see, and touch, and hear is so much more valuable than a dusty volume on a book shelf, and even more valuable than the actual car itself. Most NCRS members know that, especially the newest ones. There are changes coming in the organization as it evolves, to allow modified cars to be evaluated in a meaningful manner. And remember, all NCRS judging is against a standard, not against another car. No popularity contests. Just facts. It's right, the way GM built it - or it isn't. Over the years, as more and better information has been received and corroborated, the judging standards have evolved as well.

So it doesn't sound like we'll be seeing your car at an NCRS regional any time soon. And that's fine - as I said, it's your car, and it's your choice. Do what you enjoy, don't do things you know you won't enjoy. Why would you? I wouldn't. Doesn't make you less of a "Corvette Guy", and if we pass on the road, I'll be the one waving.

Yeah, we still do that.

 

The acronym NCRS stands for National Corvette Restorers Society. If your car is not "restored" then why would you be upset if it does not score well judged by their standards?

 

That is what I said only I used plainer English. I guess the good coming out of an inaccurate restoration is you could tie yer blue ribbon on yer radio antenna and let it flap in the breeze in the next homecoming parade.

As far as not agreeing with the book? I never was into the blind leading the blind.

I found my first SWC under 5 feet of hay in a barn in I believe, about 1980. My buddy had just bought a SWC and joined the ncrs. He said there's big money in those cars and you need to join this club they just started. They judge your car and everything.

I said, "let me see a copy of that judging book". I looked it over then handed it back and told the buddy "if that was the best they could do with a judging manual (errors) I wasn't interested in their nickel/dime operation and I wouldn't join".

That was in about 1980 and that little book hasn't changed all that much from what I've seen and heard in spite of many, many efforts to make it correct. That was 35 years ago.

I understand other years are in lots better shape for accuracy.

Did I mention I sold the SWC shortly thereafter and made a modest profit? Went looking for the '63 convertible I always wanted.

 

The big mistake the so-called "judges" writing the specs fail to realize is that back when these cars were assembled, for many off-the-shelf parts there was no set rule that a particular item was used. To keep the lines moving substitutions were made. Different brand of bolts, screws, and even components such as fuel pumps or lines. For someone to determine what is "exactly" they way something was installed 50 or more years ago is, at best, stretching the truth. Of course, if you want to play the game, go ahead, it's your money and judgement