Originally Posted by fyreline

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Categorizing the people who pursue NCRS awards as "sick" speaks much more about you than it does them. And your information is wrong . . . the vast majority of "NCRS restored" (there is no such thing) cars - I will assume you meant cars restored to NCRS standards, and/or intended to be NCRS judged - are in fact driven. Most collectors understand that part of the process of properly preserving even a million-dollar Duesenberg entails driving it occasionally.

And I think you will find that your definition of ". . .a few tasteful, subtle but effective modifications" may differ substantially from everyone else's. In the end, it's your car, and it's your choice. It's not necessary or constructive to criticize anyone else's choices - if they choose to invest their time and money in attaining a 100% factory-correct restoration of their Corvette, isn't that their business as well? I can assure you that most NCRS members are not in it for the money, despite what you believe. Many have much more invested in their cars than they could sell it for - and they know that. That isn't why they do it at all. They enjoy the challenge of the process, the hunt for parts, the camaraderie of like-minded enthusiasts, the experience of the shows . . . they like every damned thing about owning their cars.

As, I suspect, do you. I know that the NCRS has often been categorized as a bunch of old elitist white men who look down their noses at any Corvette not pristinely restored to their standards. There are almost certainly some members like that out there, just like there are members of Rat Rod clubs who disdain anything with paint on it - but in both cases they are the exception rather than the rule. The members of NCRS I have had the good fortune to meet have without exception been courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. Their interest and overall reason for existing is to ensure that our favorite car has an established set of standards stating what is factory correct and what is not, in order that future generations don't mistakenly believe that C2's came from the factory with six tail lights, or that kids no longer know what a correct 6-cylinder/Powerglide car looks, sounds and drives like.

Are those things important? Yes, I think they are. Does that mean no one can or should ever drop a V-8 into a 1954 Corvette? No, of course not. Did it myself back in 1972, shoving a Buick 401 nailhead into a clapped-out '54 and driving the HELL out of it until it literally fell to pieces. You see, most of us just enjoy cars. ALL cars. Just not all of us like the same ones at the same time.

So no, it is neither sick nor sad that the NCRS exists and that there are individuals willing and able to pursue the highest accolades of that group. A rising tide raises all boats - and the fact that so much knowledge and information will be preserved and handed down for posterity in the form of rolling, driving automobiles that future generations can see, and touch, and hear is so much more valuable than a dusty volume on a book shelf, and even more valuable than the actual car itself. Most NCRS members know that, especially the newest ones. There are changes coming in the organization as it evolves, to allow modified cars to be evaluated in a meaningful manner. And remember, all NCRS judging is against a standard, not against another car. No popularity contests. Just facts. It's right, the way GM built it - or it isn't. Over the years, as more and better information has been received and corroborated, the judging standards have evolved as well.

So it doesn't sound like we'll be seeing your car at an NCRS regional any time soon. And that's fine - as I said, it's your car, and it's your choice. Do what you enjoy, don't do things you know you won't enjoy. Why would you? I wouldn't. Doesn't make you less of a "Corvette Guy", and if we pass on the road, I'll be the one waving.

Yeah, we still do that.

Originally Posted by GCD1962

The big mistake the so-called "judges" writing the specs fail to realize is that back when these cars were assembled, for many off-the-shelf parts there was no set rule that a particular item was used. To keep the lines moving substitutions were made. Different brand of bolts, screws, and even components such as fuel pumps or lines. For someone to determine what is "exactly" they way something was installed 50 or more years ago is, at best, stretching the truth. Of course, if you want to play the game, go ahead, it's your money and judgement

Originally Posted by JackTripper

I was told by multiple Corvette owners that if you get your card NCRS judged, you will no longer like your Corvette.

Your thoughts?

Originally Posted by 65hihp

they don't evaluate what is possibly original. They judge what is typical of factory production based on the best information known, except in the cases of the errors in the guidebooks that have not been corrected. If a few original 72s came through with the bezel, but most that have been seen were without it, then the ones with the bezel get a tiny deduct. Nothing to give up on the club or the process for in my opinion.

Originally Posted by GCD1962

The big mistake the so-called "judges" writing the specs fail to realize is that back when these cars were assembled, for many off-the-shelf parts there was no set rule that a particular item was used. To keep the lines moving substitutions were made. Different brand of bolts, screws, and even components such as fuel pumps or lines. For someone to determine what is "exactly" they way something was installed 50 or more years ago is, at best, stretching the truth. Of course, if you want to play the game, go ahead, it's your money and judgement

Originally Posted by JackTripper

I was told by multiple Corvette owners that if you get your card NCRS judged, you will no longer like your Corvette. No matter how clean or great your car may appear to be, the judges will always find something wrong that will need to be addressed.

One person said that if there was a NCRS judge that stood at the end of the assembly line at the factory, he would still find something wrong with the car that just rolled off.

Your thoughts?

Originally Posted by markmywords

So you are saying that a plant that only builds Corvettes has parts used on other model cars laying on the shelf just in case they were to run out of the parts that they were supposed to use.
You are right there is no someone who has determined what is correct from 50yrs ago. There are many someones who worked very hard to document what they have found and have shared that with many others to come up with the best guide to use in the judging process. No one is forced to have their car judged. Those who do have a guide to which judge their own car against. Sort of like having the answers to a test before you take it. Those of us who do choose going through this process enjoy it. Sorry if you don't

Originally Posted by GCD1962

Not parts for other models, but common, off-the-shelf parts that can be used on any car. Same goes for "date codes". who's to say that a load of the same water pumps was in a back room from a year or two ago wasn't later used on the line because the current supply was out of stock?

Originally Posted by MikeM

I used to have a Material Handling Supervisor that was scared to death to run you out of material. Any material for fear of getting his butt busted! Every once in awhile, a shortage would pop up, sometimes on a nut or a bolt, a starter relay, a tire, a wheel, most anything.

He'd run up all out of breath, chewing on his cigar while telling you all about the parts substitution he was about to have you make. So, I'd ask him for his engineering paperwork (knowing he didn't and wouldn't have any) before I started subbing his part(s). He would chew the cigar down to a stub telling you, assuring you the paperwork would soon follow. The parts were subbed and never heard anymore about it.

We called this guy our "Material Handling Parts Substitution Engineer (on the floor)".

Of course, later on with FMVSS processes, no way would you stick your neck out on a Fed regulated process on the part or the method.

Originally Posted by GCD1962

"What's REALLY important, is to make sure that Donalt Trumpf gets elected so's the country can go back to the way it was in 1950."

Does that include a "Cold War" with the threat of a nuclear attack ?

Originally Posted by hope2

Longtime NCRS member, was a judge and have been judged late 80's early 90's. For me, life is too short.

Originally Posted by fyreline

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Categorizing the people who pursue NCRS awards as "sick" speaks much more about you than it does them. And your information is wrong . . . the vast majority of "NCRS restored" (there is no such thing) cars - I will assume you meant cars restored to NCRS standards, and/or intended to be NCRS judged - are in fact driven. Most collectors understand that part of the process of properly preserving even a million-dollar Duesenberg entails driving it occasionally.

And I think you will find that your definition of ". . .a few tasteful, subtle but effective modifications" may differ substantially from everyone else's. In the end, it's your car, and it's your choice. It's not necessary or constructive to criticize anyone else's choices - if they choose to invest their time and money in attaining a 100% factory-correct restoration of their Corvette, isn't that their business as well? I can assure you that most NCRS members are not in it for the money, despite what you believe. Many have much more invested in their cars than they could sell it for - and they know that. That isn't why they do it at all. They enjoy the challenge of the process, the hunt for parts, the camaraderie of like-minded enthusiasts, the experience of the shows . . . they like every damned thing about owning their cars.

As, I suspect, do you. I know that the NCRS has often been categorized as a bunch of old elitist white men who look down their noses at any Corvette not pristinely restored to their standards. There are almost certainly some members like that out there, just like there are members of Rat Rod clubs who disdain anything with paint on it - but in both cases they are the exception rather than the rule. The members of NCRS I have had the good fortune to meet have without exception been courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. Their interest and overall reason for existing is to ensure that our favorite car has an established set of standards stating what is factory correct and what is not, in order that future generations don't mistakenly believe that C2's came from the factory with six tail lights, or that kids no longer know what a correct 6-cylinder/Powerglide car looks, sounds and drives like.

Are those things important? Yes, I think they are. Does that mean no one can or should ever drop a V-8 into a 1954 Corvette? No, of course not. Did it myself back in 1972, shoving a Buick 401 nailhead into a clapped-out '54 and driving the HELL out of it until it literally fell to pieces. You see, most of us just enjoy cars. ALL cars. Just not all of us like the same ones at the same time.

So no, it is neither sick nor sad that the NCRS exists and that there are individuals willing and able to pursue the highest accolades of that group. A rising tide raises all boats - and the fact that so much knowledge and information will be preserved and handed down for posterity in the form of rolling, driving automobiles that future generations can see, and touch, and hear is so much more valuable than a dusty volume on a book shelf, and even more valuable than the actual car itself. Most NCRS members know that, especially the newest ones. There are changes coming in the organization as it evolves, to allow modified cars to be evaluated in a meaningful manner. And remember, all NCRS judging is against a standard, not against another car. No popularity contests. Just facts. It's right, the way GM built it - or it isn't. Over the years, as more and better information has been received and corroborated, the judging standards have evolved as well.

So it doesn't sound like we'll be seeing your car at an NCRS regional any time soon. And that's fine - as I said, it's your car, and it's your choice. Do what you enjoy, don't do things you know you won't enjoy. Why would you? I wouldn't. Doesn't make you less of a "Corvette Guy", and if we pass on the road, I'll be the one waving.

Yeah, we still do that.

Originally Posted by 67vetteal

I haven't read all the replies to the OP post. That said, there are more reasons to enjoy having your car gone over by a Team of Experts. I've been a corvette guy for over fifty years and have done just about everything you might imagine with and too these cars. My personal 67 coupe was a Base car when bought in 1972 for $1700. I added just about every OEM option available through the years including A/C. I once had my car Judged by a local NCRS Chapter just to see if they might find something done incorrectly. Not for Ego or anything, I just was curious if I missed anything or did a sloppy job anywhere. Al W.

Originally Posted by 65tripleblack

For those people who criticize Carlton, then you should come out of your hiding places and get him outta there. Then go and write the 1963 TIM&JG the way you seem to remember that it should be. No sense spewing hot air on here. If you were worth your salt, and really loved these old relics as they were sloppily built by the factory, then you'd make damn sure that the record was corrected for "posterity" (yeah, right). As if that is important in the overall scheme of things.

What's REALLY important, is to make sure that Donalt Trumpf gets elected so's the country can go back to the way it was in 1950.