block restamping
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,076
Likes: 1,191
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,233
Likes: 419
What about stamping a virgin block (i.e. a block with correct brooch marks but nothing ever stamped on the engine pad).
Technically that is not a "restamp", since nothing was stamped to being with.
OK, I am really not trying to be argumentative, but trying to point out the inconsistencies with the "it is a crime to restamp the engine pad but not other parts" analogies.
This is one area where I think we will all agree to disagree.
And what about the scenario where a non VIN derivative car has a Corvette engine (lets say it is a 57 220 hp, manual trans - EF code) and it is replaced with another 57 Corvette engine (say a 283 hp FI, manual trans - EL code). Assuming the date codes are OK for the FI engine, this would be pretty much undetectable.
An original Corvette engine has been replaced with an original Corvette engine (no restamping has taken place), but the car no longer has it "born with" engine.
True story - a while back a black / red 57 283hp FI manual trans Corvette was offered for sale. Someone on the forum checked Mike Hunt's old Corvette data. Mike's data (from many years ago) indicated that the car at that time (same VIN number) was a copper / beige 250hp, automatic car.
There are so many ways to replicate / replace the "born with" engine and make it undetectable that this is really a losing battle. We place such a premium on the "original born with engine" that we encourage the very thing we are trying to prevent.
Technically that is not a "restamp", since nothing was stamped to being with.
OK, I am really not trying to be argumentative, but trying to point out the inconsistencies with the "it is a crime to restamp the engine pad but not other parts" analogies.
This is one area where I think we will all agree to disagree.
And what about the scenario where a non VIN derivative car has a Corvette engine (lets say it is a 57 220 hp, manual trans - EF code) and it is replaced with another 57 Corvette engine (say a 283 hp FI, manual trans - EL code). Assuming the date codes are OK for the FI engine, this would be pretty much undetectable.
An original Corvette engine has been replaced with an original Corvette engine (no restamping has taken place), but the car no longer has it "born with" engine.
True story - a while back a black / red 57 283hp FI manual trans Corvette was offered for sale. Someone on the forum checked Mike Hunt's old Corvette data. Mike's data (from many years ago) indicated that the car at that time (same VIN number) was a copper / beige 250hp, automatic car.
There are so many ways to replicate / replace the "born with" engine and make it undetectable that this is really a losing battle. We place such a premium on the "original born with engine" that we encourage the very thing we are trying to prevent.
Granted, but who is the guru of stamp pads with historical samples and date ranges that show stamps variations over time and by sequence number... We all know his name...
Did I not hear even he won't verify a stamp on a pre-purchase inspection ? I wonder why that is...
Did I not hear even he won't verify a stamp on a pre-purchase inspection ? I wonder why that is...
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,103
Likes: 802
From: Massapequa Park NY
To my understanding the process is a comparison test based on the broaching machines unique marks from a given moment in time. As the blade cuts it changes its characteristics on the pad which is slightly different than ballistics tests from the barrels of a gun as that usually stays somewhat unique per barrell but similar in the way that each will have or leave a unique signature behind which can be measured.
When he determines a pad as having original broach marks he is comparing to all his material collected over the many years.
I think its a great test. I would also think ( but I do not know) that he compares things like font style and size and spacing.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,103
Likes: 802
From: Massapequa Park NY
This thread should be closed.
Discussing how to defraud someone is just WRONG,
When when of you fellas buys a stamper you cry like a baby..but here some of you try to somehow justify fraud.
Restamping hurts all of us except the guy who does it, he ends up enriching himself at everyone elses cost.
Consider this, imagine what a 'real' car would be worth if there were no fakes to poison [dilute] the market...
Discussing how to defraud someone is just WRONG,
When when of you fellas buys a stamper you cry like a baby..but here some of you try to somehow justify fraud.
Restamping hurts all of us except the guy who does it, he ends up enriching himself at everyone elses cost.
Consider this, imagine what a 'real' car would be worth if there were no fakes to poison [dilute] the market...
Putting the link to the restampers website in the thread might not have been a great idea in my opinion.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,391
Likes: 196
From: Santa Monica CA
C2 of Year Finalist (stock) 2019
2018 C2 of Year Finalist
My point is that if a car has received Top Flight certification, there is a justifiable premium price to be paid for that car. If the engine numbers and associated clues to the car's identity were satisfactory for the judges - restamp or not, documented or not - that car will be worth good money.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,091
Likes: 1,131
From: NEW YORK
Restamping engine pads is fraud plain and simple.
The problem only exists because some folks want that brand new BB Corvette we could not afford new or were too young or not even born yet when they were new. Greedy people take advantage of those of us who are silly enough to pay for this illusion.
The most carefree, fun car we ever had was a complete frankenstein 65 coupe we put together from 2 cars with a crate 350.It was the most carefree fun car I ever owned.
We still have a 66 vert that we bought in 86. The engine has never been out of the car. Every time I drive I am glad we have held onto it. If I had to buy that car today I would be suspicious as hell of it being faked and also probably wouldnt want to pay the asking price.
The problem only exists because some folks want that brand new BB Corvette we could not afford new or were too young or not even born yet when they were new. Greedy people take advantage of those of us who are silly enough to pay for this illusion.
The most carefree, fun car we ever had was a complete frankenstein 65 coupe we put together from 2 cars with a crate 350.It was the most carefree fun car I ever owned.
We still have a 66 vert that we bought in 86. The engine has never been out of the car. Every time I drive I am glad we have held onto it. If I had to buy that car today I would be suspicious as hell of it being faked and also probably wouldnt want to pay the asking price.
Last edited by phil2302; Jul 30, 2016 at 07:18 AM.
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Drifting
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,890
Likes: 376
From: Montgomery NY
I gave up restamping motors , was never able to fool any one . too many experts around 
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...1&d=1469882184
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...1&d=1469882184
Last edited by paulywannafly; Jul 30, 2016 at 08:37 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 10,189
Likes: 206
2018 Corvette of Year Finalist
2017 C3 of Year
This brings a question to mind, is an L 88 with a "restoration motor" still an L 88?
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,200
Likes: 4,187
From: Kannapolis NC
I gave up restamping motors , was never able to fool any one . too many experts around
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...1&d=1469882184
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...1&d=1469882184
Race Director
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,126
Likes: 174
From: WI
http://engineslimited.com/cms/ Many, many, many Top Flight/Bloomington Gold cars have engines from Randy with zero deducts for the pad.
noooooooo, phony stamps of ncrs top flight and bloomington gold cars? say it isn`t so.
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,997
Likes: 6,213
From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
Whatever your position on the subject, there's no downside to merely discussing the topic. The company mentioned in this thread is known to most everyone in the hobby and the ease in finding him makes it not a very tightly kept secret. I think the more people in the hobby exchange information, the more they can protect themselves and be a little more informed at purchase time.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,319
Likes: 221
From: Dalton, Ma
I disagree. The topic of restamped engines in the Corvette world is a huge subject of discussion and touches every corner of the hobby from valuation to certification. Certification bodies such as NCRS and Bloomington have had to continue to evolve in how they view "restoration blocks" on the judging field. Fake stamps have caused a cottage industry in fake documents. Buyers have to consider all sorts of methods of alleviating anxiety about making purchases. Some people have decided to forgo numbers cars entirely; others find the real ones even more valuable given the land mines of fakes out there.
Whatever your position on the subject, there's no downside to merely discussing the topic. The company mentioned in this thread is known to most everyone in the hobby and the ease in finding him makes it not a very tightly kept secret. I think the more people in the hobby exchange information, the more they can protect themselves and be a little more informed at purchase time.
Whatever your position on the subject, there's no downside to merely discussing the topic. The company mentioned in this thread is known to most everyone in the hobby and the ease in finding him makes it not a very tightly kept secret. I think the more people in the hobby exchange information, the more they can protect themselves and be a little more informed at purchase time.
As moderator of this site, I respectfully ask your opinion on re-stamping a block. Good for the hobby, bad for the hobby.. ethical not ethical...your opinion.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,233
Likes: 419
The number of 435HP cars that have been judged by NCRS are a small fraction of the total number built (data is available - so count them up). Where are the rest of these cars? I don't see them. And most that I do see do have obvious clues that they are NOM 435s. But nowhere near the numbers you are suggesting.
