[C1] 61 Starter install
06-10-2017, 11:19 PM
#1
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61 Starter install
I am officially stumped. I've been restoring the 61 vette that my Dad disassembled 25 years ago and am at the point where I need to install the starter. The engine/trans are already in the car - the 350 engine is newer (circa 1975) and the bellhousing/trans/flywheel are original. I have the original block and it looks the same in the starter area. The bellhousing does not have any mounting holes for the starter, just a small hole at the bottom. It is the original starter with the end cap that can be mounted to the bellhousing. Am I missing something? How do you mount the starter to the bellhousing?
Any help would be appreciated!!!!
Jim
Any help would be appreciated!!!!
Jim
06-10-2017, 11:44 PM
#3
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The problem I have is that the 75 starter bolts to the block. I cannot use that type of starter with this bellhousing without ruining the bellhousing. Also, I have a 168 tooth flywheel, my understanding is that I would need to switch to a 153 tooth to do that. There are three mounting holes on the starter, but there is nowhere for them to mate up on the bellhousing.
I'm using the same bellhousing and starter that my Dad removed from the car, I just can't see how to bolt them together.
I'm using the same bellhousing and starter that my Dad removed from the car, I just can't see how to bolt them together.
06-10-2017, 11:52 PM
#4
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St. Jude Donor '07
there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that your starter will bolt up to that bellhousing or engine; that bellhousing is not original to that car.
you have to have a bellhousing something like this to use your starter
Bill
you have to have a bellhousing something like this to use your starter
Bill
Last edited by wmf62; 06-10-2017 at 11:58 PM.
06-11-2017, 12:09 AM
#5
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The stuff you learn when putting a car back together that you didn't take apart.
Thanks
06-11-2017, 12:14 AM
#6
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St. Jude Donor '07
http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/sh...hp?tid/171683/
Bill
Last edited by wmf62; 06-11-2017 at 12:17 AM.
06-11-2017, 08:35 AM
#8
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I see no reason you can't just get a later model aluminum bellhousing for a 168 tooth flywheel and block mounted starter and use that?
Isn't that what is shown in the first picture?
Isn't that what is shown in the first picture?
Last edited by MikeM; 06-11-2017 at 08:37 AM.
06-11-2017, 11:49 AM
#9
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MikeM,
You are correct, the bell housing I have installed is a 621, I have since learned that I should have a 553 for a '61. I'm not sure how I ended up with this bellhousing, it is the one that was with the parts that came with the car when my Dad gave it to me. He disassembled the car about 25 years ago and I can only assume he gave me the wrong one. Is there a starter that will work with this housing and the big flywheel? I'm doing the research now to see.
Thanks. Jim
You are correct, the bell housing I have installed is a 621, I have since learned that I should have a 553 for a '61. I'm not sure how I ended up with this bellhousing, it is the one that was with the parts that came with the car when my Dad gave it to me. He disassembled the car about 25 years ago and I can only assume he gave me the wrong one. Is there a starter that will work with this housing and the big flywheel? I'm doing the research now to see.
Thanks. Jim
06-11-2017, 12:27 PM
#10
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From Tom Parsons (DZAUTO) in a previous thread:
The ONLY (PRODUCTION) big blocks on the planet to have received the smaller 153 teeth flywheel were the 1965 CORVETTE 396 (NOT full size cars or Chevelles) and the later L88/ZL1 engines with HD clutch. ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL other big blocks got the larger 168 teeth flywhee and larger bell housing--------------------including 66 Vettes! And that includes the 66 450hp and 425hp/427.
Soooooooooooooooooooooo, what is correct for your 1966 427 Corvette?????? It would be a 168 teeth flywheel, 11in clutch, 444 bell housing. The 444 housing was one year only (ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, I know, maybe some very early 67 cars, Vettes and Chevelles, got a 444 housing). The 621 housing (which is virutally identical to the 1966 444 housing) went into use in 67.
The ONLY starter which was used (WE'RE TALKING GM DELCO TYPE STARTER!!!, NOT mini starters) with the larger 444-621 style housings were starters with a CAST IRON nose and a staggered bolt pattern. PERIOD! Yes, there were starters with an alum nose and staggered bolt pattern, BUT the alum nose WILL NOT fit into the starter bulge of the 444-621 housings! The cast iron nose is smaller (and stronger).
And to comment on a starter with the straight across bolt pattern (again, GM Delco type starter), it ONLY mates with the smaller 153 teeth flywheel-----------------------WHICH DID NOT COME IN A 1966 427 CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ONLY (PRODUCTION) big blocks on the planet to have received the smaller 153 teeth flywheel were the 1965 CORVETTE 396 (NOT full size cars or Chevelles) and the later L88/ZL1 engines with HD clutch. ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL other big blocks got the larger 168 teeth flywhee and larger bell housing--------------------including 66 Vettes! And that includes the 66 450hp and 425hp/427.
Soooooooooooooooooooooo, what is correct for your 1966 427 Corvette?????? It would be a 168 teeth flywheel, 11in clutch, 444 bell housing. The 444 housing was one year only (ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, I know, maybe some very early 67 cars, Vettes and Chevelles, got a 444 housing). The 621 housing (which is virutally identical to the 1966 444 housing) went into use in 67.
The ONLY starter which was used (WE'RE TALKING GM DELCO TYPE STARTER!!!, NOT mini starters) with the larger 444-621 style housings were starters with a CAST IRON nose and a staggered bolt pattern. PERIOD! Yes, there were starters with an alum nose and staggered bolt pattern, BUT the alum nose WILL NOT fit into the starter bulge of the 444-621 housings! The cast iron nose is smaller (and stronger).
And to comment on a starter with the straight across bolt pattern (again, GM Delco type starter), it ONLY mates with the smaller 153 teeth flywheel-----------------------WHICH DID NOT COME IN A 1966 427 CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by Plasticman; 06-11-2017 at 12:29 PM.
06-11-2017, 01:24 PM
#11
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Starter noses interchange between starters, so, if you can find the right nose piece, you can swap it out.
Or, just go with a ministarter which will fit everything.
I actually like the mini starter as it weighs a ton less than an original, and is much easier to install if you have headers.
If you have a 168 tooth flywheel, a GM ministarter for a 1990s S-10 V6 should fit, or you can get aftermarket thru Summit and other places. I am not sure how original you want your car, but if you don't have the right bell... I guess the starter shouldn't matter either.
Doug
Or, just go with a ministarter which will fit everything.
I actually like the mini starter as it weighs a ton less than an original, and is much easier to install if you have headers.
If you have a 168 tooth flywheel, a GM ministarter for a 1990s S-10 V6 should fit, or you can get aftermarket thru Summit and other places. I am not sure how original you want your car, but if you don't have the right bell... I guess the starter shouldn't matter either.
Doug
06-11-2017, 01:36 PM
#12
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From Tom Parsons (DZAUTO) in a previous thread:
The ONLY (PRODUCTION) big blocks on the planet to have received the smaller 153 teeth flywheel were the 1965 CORVETTE 396 (NOT full size cars or Chevelles) and the later L88/ZL1 engines with HD clutch. ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL other big blocks got the larger 168 teeth flywhee and larger bell housing--------------------including 66 Vettes! And that includes the 66 450hp and 425hp/427.
Soooooooooooooooooooooo, what is correct for your 1966 427 Corvette?????? It would be a 168 teeth flywheel, 11in clutch, 444 bell housing. The 444 housing was one year only (ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, I know, maybe some very early 67 cars, Vettes and Chevelles, got a 444 housing). The 621 housing (which is virutally identical to the 1966 444 housing) went into use in 67.
The ONLY starter which was used (WE'RE TALKING GM DELCO TYPE STARTER!!!, NOT mini starters) with the larger 444-621 style housings were starters with a CAST IRON nose and a staggered bolt pattern. PERIOD! Yes, there were starters with an alum nose and staggered bolt pattern, BUT the alum nose WILL NOT fit into the starter bulge of the 444-621 housings! The cast iron nose is smaller (and stronger).
And to comment on a starter with the straight across bolt pattern (again, GM Delco type starter), it ONLY mates with the smaller 153 teeth flywheel-----------------------WHICH DID NOT COME IN A 1966 427 CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ONLY (PRODUCTION) big blocks on the planet to have received the smaller 153 teeth flywheel were the 1965 CORVETTE 396 (NOT full size cars or Chevelles) and the later L88/ZL1 engines with HD clutch. ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL other big blocks got the larger 168 teeth flywhee and larger bell housing--------------------including 66 Vettes! And that includes the 66 450hp and 425hp/427.
Soooooooooooooooooooooo, what is correct for your 1966 427 Corvette?????? It would be a 168 teeth flywheel, 11in clutch, 444 bell housing. The 444 housing was one year only (ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, I know, maybe some very early 67 cars, Vettes and Chevelles, got a 444 housing). The 621 housing (which is virutally identical to the 1966 444 housing) went into use in 67.
The ONLY starter which was used (WE'RE TALKING GM DELCO TYPE STARTER!!!, NOT mini starters) with the larger 444-621 style housings were starters with a CAST IRON nose and a staggered bolt pattern. PERIOD! Yes, there were starters with an alum nose and staggered bolt pattern, BUT the alum nose WILL NOT fit into the starter bulge of the 444-621 housings! The cast iron nose is smaller (and stronger).
And to comment on a starter with the straight across bolt pattern (again, GM Delco type starter), it ONLY mates with the smaller 153 teeth flywheel-----------------------WHICH DID NOT COME IN A 1966 427 CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's excellent info - thank you. I actually just messaged DZAuto asking if there was a starter I could use. Thanks for the info!!
Jim
06-11-2017, 01:40 PM
#13
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Starter noses interchange between starters, so, if you can find the right nose piece, you can swap it out.
Or, just go with a ministarter which will fit everything.
I actually like the mini starter as it weighs a ton less than an original, and is much easier to install if you have headers.
If you have a 168 tooth flywheel, a GM ministarter for a 1990s S-10 V6 should fit, or you can get aftermarket thru Summit and other places. I am not sure how original you want your car, but if you don't have the right bell... I guess the starter shouldn't matter either.
Doug
Or, just go with a ministarter which will fit everything.
I actually like the mini starter as it weighs a ton less than an original, and is much easier to install if you have headers.
If you have a 168 tooth flywheel, a GM ministarter for a 1990s S-10 V6 should fit, or you can get aftermarket thru Summit and other places. I am not sure how original you want your car, but if you don't have the right bell... I guess the starter shouldn't matter either.
Doug
Thanks much - you always seem to have the answer! I want the car to be as original as possible, but for now I need to get it running. This car was given to me by my Dad 12 years ago, he took it apart about 25 years ago. I'm sure he just gave me the wrong bellhousing. I'm going to give it back to him next month as a surprise so I'm sure I will find the right bellhousing in his garage. We can swap it out later.
Thanks again
Jim
06-11-2017, 02:05 PM
#14
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2023 C1 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2015 C1 of the Year Finalist
You have TWO, repeat, TWO options-----------------------with what you have to work with.
As mentioned, you can use a block mounted, later style starter. Your flywheel is a 168 teeth version-------------------AND----------------- your bell housing is a later style version to be used with a 168 teeth flywheel.
NOW, read the following carefully!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ONLY, repeat, ONLY block mounted style starter (I'm talking GM Delco type starter, NOT aftermarket mini) which will work with your existing flywheel and bell housing is a starter with a CAST IRON nose that has a staggered bolt pattern. OK, so why won't a starter with an alum nose and staggered bolt pattern work?????????? BECAUSE, the alum nose with a staggered bolt pattern WILL NOT FIT INTO THE STARTER BULGE OF YOUR BELL HOUSING!!!!!!! The alum nose if fatter than the cast iron nose.
Next option is to round up a bell housing as shown in Bill's picture above. A 55-62 cast iron housing will work with your starter, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, the 60-62 cast iron versions WILL NOT WORK with your clutch linkage (ONLY the 55-59 housings have the necessary 2 threaded holes for a bracket with the clutch ball stud).
The CORRECT housing for your 61 is like the one in Bill's picture above----------------BUT, the 60-62 housings were alum-----------------and they are now expensive!!!!!!!!!!! They also have the two necessary bolt holes for the clutch ball stud bracket.
Here is a comparison of the cast iron and alum noses with the staggered bolt pattern. As can be seen, the alum nose if fatter, and WILL NOT fit into your bell housing.
Cast iron is on right in this picture.
Here is a comparison of a 60-62 alum housing and a 55-59 style iron housing.
IF, IF, IF you decided to go with an iron housing for the time being, it NEEDS TO BE A 57-59 version (the ball stud for the throwout bearing FORK is the correct style).
ONE VERY LAST OBSERVATION, THE BELL HOUSING THAT YOU HAVE WILL NOT WORK WITH YOUR CLUTCH LINKAGE--------------BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE THE TWO THREADED HOLES FOR YOUR CLUTCH BRACKET WITH THE BALL STUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As mentioned, you can use a block mounted, later style starter. Your flywheel is a 168 teeth version-------------------AND----------------- your bell housing is a later style version to be used with a 168 teeth flywheel.
NOW, read the following carefully!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ONLY, repeat, ONLY block mounted style starter (I'm talking GM Delco type starter, NOT aftermarket mini) which will work with your existing flywheel and bell housing is a starter with a CAST IRON nose that has a staggered bolt pattern. OK, so why won't a starter with an alum nose and staggered bolt pattern work?????????? BECAUSE, the alum nose with a staggered bolt pattern WILL NOT FIT INTO THE STARTER BULGE OF YOUR BELL HOUSING!!!!!!! The alum nose if fatter than the cast iron nose.
Next option is to round up a bell housing as shown in Bill's picture above. A 55-62 cast iron housing will work with your starter, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, the 60-62 cast iron versions WILL NOT WORK with your clutch linkage (ONLY the 55-59 housings have the necessary 2 threaded holes for a bracket with the clutch ball stud).
The CORRECT housing for your 61 is like the one in Bill's picture above----------------BUT, the 60-62 housings were alum-----------------and they are now expensive!!!!!!!!!!! They also have the two necessary bolt holes for the clutch ball stud bracket.
Here is a comparison of the cast iron and alum noses with the staggered bolt pattern. As can be seen, the alum nose if fatter, and WILL NOT fit into your bell housing.
Cast iron is on right in this picture.
Here is a comparison of a 60-62 alum housing and a 55-59 style iron housing.
IF, IF, IF you decided to go with an iron housing for the time being, it NEEDS TO BE A 57-59 version (the ball stud for the throwout bearing FORK is the correct style).
ONE VERY LAST OBSERVATION, THE BELL HOUSING THAT YOU HAVE WILL NOT WORK WITH YOUR CLUTCH LINKAGE--------------BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE THE TWO THREADED HOLES FOR YOUR CLUTCH BRACKET WITH THE BALL STUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06-11-2017, 02:15 PM
#16
Race Director
Actually, a little modification to the factory ball stud bracket (drilling, welding to get the ball in the correct location), will allow the ball stud bracket to be mounted to either the bell, or the motor block (your choice if that block has tapped boss for the ball stud.
Only one bolt is necessary to hold the bracket in position if it is tight, tight tight, , I used that arrangement for decades with an aluminum Chevelle bell with the modified bracket bolted to the bell.
Is it correct? No. Does it work? Yes, if you don't have the correct bell, or don't want to change it.
A 55-57 passenger car cast iron bell will work with the factory ball stud bracket, and they are cheap.
Doug
Only one bolt is necessary to hold the bracket in position if it is tight, tight tight, , I used that arrangement for decades with an aluminum Chevelle bell with the modified bracket bolted to the bell.
Is it correct? No. Does it work? Yes, if you don't have the correct bell, or don't want to change it.
A 55-57 passenger car cast iron bell will work with the factory ball stud bracket, and they are cheap.
Doug
06-11-2017, 02:20 PM
#17
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I agree. GREAT post by DZ, highly informative, and 'sticky' worthy, as well! Years and years of experience here.
06-11-2017, 02:28 PM
#18
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WOW. That was some great info. Thank you to both DZAuto and AZDoug. At the very least, it looks as though I have a couple of options. I'm going to read these posts about three more times to let them "sink in", then go from there. I'm hoping to be able to use the existing bell housing for now, the issue appears to be the clutch linkage. I'm hoping I can go the route AZDoug has suggested until I get the correct bellhousing installed.
Thanks again!
Thanks again!
06-11-2017, 03:15 PM
#19
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You can even just install the 7/16" bolt thru the forward hole of the ball bracket only, and bolt it to the bell,after you open the hole up, if 7/16" bolt won't go thorough the existing hole (it may), and use it like that. The Z bar won't be straight, but it works OK,a s I also did THAT for few years, long ago, before i had a welding machine.
Doug
06-11-2017, 03:34 PM
#20
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St. Jude Donor '07
i absolutely positively cannot stand the one-piece full aluminum bellhousing for use on a C1 (don't even like it on any other model either....); for 2 reasons: 1) ya can't work on the clutch, and 2) there is no way to properly mount the zbar support....
John made this bracket to use when I was using my MY6 transmission
Bill
John made this bracket to use when I was using my MY6 transmission
Bill
Last edited by wmf62; 06-11-2017 at 03:36 PM.