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I talked to Art Carr today about a 2004R automatic overdrive for my '67...
...and he said they now make a bolt in adapter for the rear trans mount so you don't have to do any cutting or welding of the rear cross member to install one. Completely bolt-in. I'm heading to his shop in Huntington Beach in a day or two to check it out.
The 2004R was a good overdrive from GM. It is basically a Metric 200C with the OD unit built into the front end of it. Had the same weaknesses the 200C had, the shell stripping the splines out, bushing wear, friction clutches flaking the lining off.
We rebuilt hundreds of them before I retired in my shop and when right, they work terrific and are very dependable.
What worked for us: a QUALITY Torque Converter, fresh bushing set, friction set and band, No assembly errors of course, clearances within specs, Transgo Valve Body kit, the full kit, and most important when it is back in the car is the CORRECT TV cable setting. That cable is the life of the trans as it is more than the "kickdown" cable, it controls the entire operating pressure of the trans from idle to WOT. Get it right with the Transgo kit and the trans shifts superb at ALL throttle openings. If cable is off 1/8 inch or more trans will feel lazy with so-so shifts and you will be scratching your head.
Alot of guys say it's a self adjusting cable when you push pedal to the floor, wrong, it is not. Takes two people to set it and 5 minutes before road test and final adjustment.
Be glad to give you the adjustment steps if you care to hear them.
Randy, I suspect that if you install that OD trans, you will be perfectly happy with the performance of your original engine. At least I hope so. With a real first gear, the spacing between the gears,and the overdrive, it'll feel like you gained 100 HP and your fuel mileage will increase. The car will also run cooler on the freeway. Love the color!
The 2004R was a good overdrive from GM. It is basically a Metric 200C with the OD unit built into the front end of it. Had the same weaknesses the 200C had, the shell stripping the splines out, bushing wear, friction clutches flaking the lining off.
We rebuilt hundreds of them before I retired in my shop and when right, they work terrific and are very dependable.
What worked for us: a QUALITY Torque Converter, fresh bushing set, friction set and band, No assembly errors of course, clearances within specs, Transgo Valve Body kit, the full kit, and most important when it is back in the car is the CORRECT TV cable setting. That cable is the life of the trans as it is more than the "kickdown" cable, it controls the entire operating pressure of the trans from idle to WOT. Get it right with the Transgo kit and the trans shifts superb at ALL throttle openings. If cable is off 1/8 inch or more trans will feel lazy with so-so shifts and you will be scratching your head.
Alot of guys say it's a self adjusting cable when you push pedal to the floor, wrong, it is not. Takes two people to set it and 5 minutes before road test and final adjustment.
Be glad to give you the adjustment steps if you care to hear them.
Sounds like you know your transmissions.
Between the 700R4 & the 200R4; which would you choose for a strictly street, stock HP (300) C2?
The 2004R was a good overdrive from GM. It is basically a Metric 200C with the OD unit built into the front end of it. Had the same weaknesses the 200C had, the shell stripping the splines out, bushing wear, friction clutches flaking the lining off.
We rebuilt hundreds of them before I retired in my shop and when right, they work terrific and are very dependable.
What worked for us: a QUALITY Torque Converter, fresh bushing set, friction set and band, No assembly errors of course, clearances within specs, Transgo Valve Body kit, the full kit, and most important when it is back in the car is the CORRECT TV cable setting. That cable is the life of the trans as it is more than the "kickdown" cable, it controls the entire operating pressure of the trans from idle to WOT. Get it right with the Transgo kit and the trans shifts superb at ALL throttle openings. If cable is off 1/8 inch or more trans will feel lazy with so-so shifts and you will be scratching your head.
Alot of guys say it's a self adjusting cable when you push pedal to the floor, wrong, it is not. Takes two people to set it and 5 minutes before road test and final adjustment.
Be glad to give you the adjustment steps if you care to hear them.
I'm interested in step by step instructions. Plan to put a 2004r in a 57 vette. Wonder if Carr has an adapter for the earlier vettes?
Art is a great guy, I had his trans in a 600hp Camaro a few years ago, worked flawlessly! He really knows his transmissions. Set the TV valve just like he says, makes a big difference.
colo63sw, If I were to do the swap, I would use the 700 as it's much closer to the original Alum PG that came in these cars. 2004R is a longer unit that seems to require more mods to make it fit. Alot of companies seem to have these change over kits to make the swap easier. I have never done a swap but I can tell you what works and what doesn't on factory installed setups.
Cable settings are the same for 2004R and 700R4.
OC-1, and anyone else on the GM TV (throttle valve) cable settings:
These are the steps we used with success on FACTORY setups. Some aftermarket brackets, cables, cable ends may be and are usually different but the principle is the same.
With trans installed in vehicle and cable bracket on intake and TV cable slid thru the bracket with attaching end at carb throttle attaching point. Trans TV cable correctly connected in transmission.
Attach cable end onto ball connector on carb lever.
Engine off of course. Find TV cable release button, usually silver colored half moon tab and slide TV cable forward out of housing toward carb all the way out. Release tab.
Have friend, helper, from inside cockpit push pedal to floor and make sure pedal, accelerator and carb open to WOT. (wide open throttle)
with no binding of any kind. Bend bracket if you have to but make sure pedal at WOT puts carb arm at WOT.
Now, with TV cable on carb arm, and with your friend HOLDING pedal to the floor, push release tab, you push black cable housing, the sliding part of the cable BACK against the trans spring pressure in the trans till you feel it stop. It will be stiff, you are pushing against TV spring in VB. Don't move carb off WOT.
Friend is still holding pedal on floor. Now, release the adjuster tab. Let off pedal.
If you want to, you can stuff a paper towel down in carb opening to soak fuel if you don't want to squirt fuel in intake as you will be operating throttle several times during this setup.
Now, TV cable is connected to carb, you pushed back on cable as helper was holding WOT and you released lock tab. Get your pocket knife out and make a slit mark on sliding part of cable right up against the square cable housing so you can see it. That mark is your MAX TV mark. Never let that mark disappear into housing. If you do, you will bend the bracket and stretch cable when you go WOT.
You can road test car at this point. Shifts may be a bit late and firm because you are set at MAX TV adjustment. Now we need to find MIN TV setting. Push adjuster tab and move cable forward about 1/8 to 1/4 inch. Somewhere close to this will be MIN setting.
If you ever get lost with setting just slide cable back to the knife mark being just visible in front of housing. That is MAX TV.
To find MIN TV you must drive car with cable forward of the MAX mark about 1/4 inch. Find an open road where you can start, stop many times. Minimum throttle take off, let trans shift 1-2, 2-3 and mat it to floor, trans MUST make a quick, clean 3-1 downshift. You want to find the point where you LOSE the 3-1 downshift, THAT is your MIN setting.
Slide cable back into housing until you just pick up the 3-1 downshift. Put another knife slit on cable housing at that point. That is MIN mark.
Somewhere between those two knife marks will be the happy spot for shift timing and shift feel. Alot of transmissions like the MAX mark, some like the MIN mark and some like it right in between the marks. Road tests and testing is what it take to find the sweet spot.
If trans still doesn't feel right after this procedure then something is either wrong in the trans valve body or one of the above steps is wrong. Cable too long, too short, not at WOT, sticking cable, bracket bent etc.
This sounds like alot of work but it isn't once you spend some time with it. Once you find that MAX setting you are safe and all you have to do is find the MIN setting. If you get lost, set it back at MAX and start over.
Again, this procedure is with GM factory cables, brackets and connections. Aftermarket setups are likely different and you may have to adapt for these.
Hope this pic loads as it shows a typical cable, bracket setup. Guy is holding carb at WOT and shows good shot of cable, bracket, connection at carb, sliding cable, silver half moon release tab.
This pic shows what look like WOT with TV cable slid forward all the way ready for you to push back on cable slider to find MAX TV.
Pic robbed from superchevy dot com.
This setup procedure came step by step from none other than the late Gil Younger, founder, owner of Transgo.
Randy another option is TRC transmission in Chatsworth talk to Ron he builds a stout OD trans..does lots of older car conversions builds his own converters. Havent broken one yet.
Randy, I suspect that if you install that OD trans, you will be perfectly happy with the performance of your original engine. At least I hope so. With a real first gear, the spacing between the gears,and the overdrive, it'll feel like you gained 100 HP and your fuel mileage will increase. The car will also run cooler on the freeway. Love the color!
Driving around right now with a Powerglide transmission it feels pretty peppy even though it's supposedly the 300 horsepower 327 engine. The engine actually feels stronger than 300 horsepower, but I suspect you're right about the difference in driving it with a lower low gear, and an overdrive on the freeway.
When I was talking to Art yesterday I explain to him how I had a 700R4 Transmission in my 62 Corvette that I just sold, and it had a 435 horsepower engine in it. First to second gear shifts would snap the car because the the difference between the gears was (I think) too much. Art Carr says that's been his experience too, that people prefer the 2004R over the 700R4 once they've driven both.
The 700R4 is a bigger transmission physically which makes it really tight up in the transmission tunnel. The 2004R is probably closer to the Powerglide in physical dimensions except the mounts are on the very back of the transmission which presents some challenges. I'm not sure Art will let me snap a picture of his mount unless I already ordered the transmission.
I even asked them about installing it for me and they said in and out seven hundred bucks. I still have the gauge to set the pressure and everything that I used to set up my 700R4 in the 62, and I have a 2 post lift and hydraulic transmission jack that would roll around under the car and allow me to lift a thing in and out. But for seven hundred bucks fully adjusted out the door with a warranty, I might just take the car over there and tell them to have it.
The only head scratcher I have is that my 700R4 from Bowtie came with a lock up converter, and Art doesn't recommend one for the 2004R. The only issue I had with the lock up converter with a 700R4 was if you in overdrive driving around town or in freeway traffic at 45-50 miles per hour the converter would lock and unlock and the car would feel like it's surging. When it did that I would just reach over and grab the shifter and pulled it back into 3rd. And even at that it would put the RPM back to 2000 which is probably where it should have been anyway at that speed.
Driving around right now with a Powerglide transmission it feels pretty peppy even though it's supposedly the 300 horsepower 327 engine. The engine actually feels stronger than 300 horsepower, but I suspect you're right about the difference in driving it with a lower low gear, and an overdrive on the freeway.
When I was talking to Art yesterday I explain to him how I had a 700R4 Transmission in my 62 Corvette that I just sold, and it had a 435 horsepower engine in it. First to second gear shifts would snap the car because the the difference between the gears was (I think) too much. Art Carr says that's been his experience too, that people prefer the 2004R over the 700R4 once they've driven both.
The 700R4 is a bigger transmission physically which makes it really tight up in the transmission tunnel. The 2004R is probably closer to the Powerglide in physical dimensions except the mounts are on the very back of the transmission which presents some challenges. I'm not sure Art will let me snap a picture of his mount unless I already ordered the transmission.
I even asked them about installing it for me and they said in and out seven hundred bucks. I still have the gauge to set the pressure and everything that I used to set up my 700R4 in the 62, and I have a 2 post lift and hydraulic transmission jack that would roll around under the car and allow me to lift a thing in and out. But for seven hundred bucks fully adjusted out the door with a warranty, I might just take the car over there and tell them to have it.
The only head scratcher I have is that my 700R4 from Bowtie came with a lock up converter, and Art doesn't recommend one for the 2004R. The only issue I had with the lock up converter with a 700R4 was if you in overdrive driving around town or in freeway traffic at 45-50 miles per hour the converter would lock and unlock and the car would feel like it's surging. When it did that I would just reach over and grab the shifter and pulled it back into 3rd. And even at that it would put the RPM back to 2000 which is probably where it should have been anyway at that speed.
I would definitely do the 200R4 over the 700R4... Fits better, less weight, less reciprocating mass (ie. more hp to the tires) and still a huge improvement in gear ratios vs a PG...
I would also do the lock up converter for sure, that knocks another 400-500 rpms off of your freeway cruise rpm. You can use a vacuum operated switch to lock it or even just a toggle switch on the shifter if you want to keep it real simple and just lock it when you want.
The 200R4 swap will definitely pep it up over the PG, and cruise nicer on the highway. For $700, I'd definitely let them install and adjust the TV....if for anything, a better chance of warranty coverage down the road.
I would definitely do the 200R4 over the 700R4... Fits better, less weight, less reciprocating mass (ie. more hp to the tires) and still a huge improvement in gear ratios vs a PG...
I would also do the lock up converter for sure, that knocks another 400-500 rpms off of your freeway cruise rpm. You can use a vacuum operated switch to lock it or even just a toggle switch on the shifter if you want to keep it real simple and just lock it when you want.
The 200R4 swap will definitely pep it up over the PG, and cruise nicer on the highway. For $700, I'd definitely let them install and adjust the TV....if for anything, a better chance of warranty coverage down the road.
That and a lockup converter will reduce operating temperature in the transmission because it eliminates power loss through the converted when it's locked. Might give you a couple extra MPG on the highway, too.
I would definitely do the 200R4 over the 700R4... Fits better, less weight, less reciprocating mass (ie. more hp to the tires) and still a huge improvement in gear ratios vs a PG...
I would also do the lock up converter for sure, that knocks another 400-500 rpms off of your freeway cruise rpm. You can use a vacuum operated switch to lock it or even just a toggle switch on the shifter if you want to keep it real simple and just lock it when you want.
The 200R4 swap will definitely pep it up over the PG, and cruise nicer on the highway. For $700, I'd definitely let them install and adjust the TV....if for anything, a better chance of warranty coverage down the road.
I agree with the above 100%. For what it's worth.....
I went there today and he's pretty adamant about not using a lock up converter. He's convinced you don't need one. I'm not. I didn't get a look at his "bracket" either.
Art Carr gets $2,200 for the trans and just under $600 for a non lock up converter. Bowtie Overdrives gets $1,600-ish for the same hp rated 2004R trans and they are throwing a lock-up converter in for free. Both are in So Cal. Hmmmm.
10-05-2017, 02:42 AM
I talked to Art Carr today about a 2004R automatic overdrive for my '67...
