When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I apologize for hijacking the used tremec thread and am opening this one.
Jim (6T5Rush)
a long time time ago we talked about lubes and I told you that they had given me monelec to use rather than atf. You said you would try it, did you?
The reason I ask is that SST Jeff is suggesting dextronIII (a non-synthetic) as synthetic may be “slipperier”..... having originally used atf for the first 700 miles and then changing to monelec I’d rather not toss a perfectly good oil on a lark.
You might want to give John Deere Low Viscosity Hy-Gard a try. It exceeds the specs for Dextron III, but will handle much higher temps and has better lubricity with less friction modifiers.
I’ve been using it for years in my race truck. Shifts better and temps are down +/- 20 degrees after a pass. I’ve also heard that it will improve shifting in T56s with that notchy feel. From what you are describing, it may work for you.
Fairly inexpensive too. A gallon is ~$20. I buy 5 gallon buckets for $75, and use it in my tractor and transmissions that don’t require a synthetic.
I apologize for hijacking the used tremec thread and am opening this one.
Jim (6T5Rush)
a long time time ago we talked about lubes and I told you that they had given me monelec to use rather than atf. You said you would try it, did you?
The reason I ask is that SST Jeff is suggesting dextronIII (a non-synthetic) as synthetic may be “slipperier”..... having originally used atf for the first 700 miles and then changing to monelec I’d rather not toss a perfectly good oil on a lark.
Bill
Bill,
I'm running a G-Force Street 5 Speed in my C2. As you may know, G-Force is one of the premier transmission vendors in the country - and they even formulate their own lubricant to be used in their products. Here is their description of their lubricant that came with my transmission:
Lubricants
To ensure maximum performance and proper lubrication of gears and bearings in all G-Force Transmissions, use G-Force specially formulated GF-2000 Transmission Oil. This lubricant will hold up to extreme temperatures while maintaining the correct viscosity.
You may want to give them a call and see if they might recommend their lubricant in your application!
Legend Gear, the manufacturer of the transmission that Keisler modified to become the SS700 recommended the Monolec 1150 lube as an upgrade to the originally spec'd atf as apparently they were concerned about heat build up in their transmission that they had seen causing 'bluing' of gears. The Monolec supposedly has better heat protection capabilities.
while I find it hard to believe that the heat induced by friction or load would cause heat related bluing of gears (I 'believe' they said the input gear...) in a street transmission i'm in no way an expert, just a bubba...
so, I stopped by their shop while on a trip and explained my clash problems (and took a tour of their facility) and the owner said that they had just decided to recommend the Monolec due to the reason given; so, they GAVE (street price of the stuff is almost $18 a quart....) me enough for a refill and after an initial 700 mile break-in with atf I changed to the Monolec...
Legend Gear, the manufacturer of the transmission that Keisler modified to become the SS700 recommended the Monolec 1150 lube as an upgrade to the originally spec'd atf as apparently they were concerned about heat build up in their transmission that they had seen causing 'bluing' of gears. The Monolec supposedly has better heat protection capabilities.
while I find it hard to believe that the heat induced by friction or load would cause heat related bluing of gears (I 'believe' they said the input gear...) in a street transmission i'm in no way an expert, just a bubba...
so, I stopped by their shop while on a trip and explained my clash problems (and took a tour of their facility) and the owner said that they had just decided to recommend the Monolec due to the reason given; so, they GAVE (street price of the stuff is almost $18 a quart....) me enough for a refill and after an initial 700 mile break-in with atf I changed to the Monolec...
and that's my story, and i'm sticking to it....
Bill
Bill,
I'm sorry to hear about your continuing problems with your transmission as far as clash, noise and notchiness. I think that we had talked about lubricants awhile ago.
Reason for this response is that YES, input gears can overheat. My RS600, which is quiet, and smooth thank goodness, was subject to a HARD missed shift by yours truly. This resulted in a cracked 3-4 shift fork. Keisler had already gone belly up, so I drove the 500 miles to deliver the trans to Zak Harty in Ohio. He is an expert on T45 transmissions (the donor for the RS600). While he had it apart, he told me the input gear was overheated. I had no spare at the time and told him to replace the fork and put it together. I drove it home the following day, then opened it up to examine the input gear. Yes, it was blue all around, but not excessively so. Some emery was used on the teeth and I reassembled it.
I was able to buy a replacement input shaft, which is in my parts stock, but I decided to research substitute lube for ATF. I settled on Amsoil Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid 5W-30
That was two years ago, and I haven't been inside the trans since. I assume that all is well and keeping fingers crossed that the different lube will be a remedy. No problems to report so no urgency to open it up.
BTW: My car is primarily street driven, although I do drag race it a couple days/season. Possible that the bluing occurs during high G loading on acceleration.
Joe
Last edited by 65tripleblack; Feb 10, 2018 at 10:22 AM.
Bill,
I'm sorry to hear about your continuing problems with your transmission as far as clash, noise and notchiness. I think that we had talked about lubricants awhile ago.
Reason for this response is that YES, input gears can overheat. My RS600, which is quiet, and smooth thank goodness, was subject to a HARD missed shift by yours truly. This resulted in a cracked 3-4 shift fork. Keisler had already gone belly up, so I drove the 500 miles to deliver the trans to Zak Harty in Ohio. He is an expert on T45 transmissions (the donor for the RS600). While he had it apart, he told me the input gear was overheated. I had no spare at the time and told him to replace the fork and put it together. I drove it home the following day, then opened it up to examine the input gear. Yes, it was blue all around, but not excessively so. Some emery was used on the teeth and I reassembled it.
I was able to buy a replacement input shaft, which is in my parts stock, but I decided to research substitute lube for ATF. I settled on Amsoil Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid 5W-30
That was two years ago, and I haven't been inside the trans since. I assume that all is well and keeping fingers crossed that the different lube will be a remedy. No problems to report so no urgency to open it up.
BTW: My car is primarily street driven, although I do drag race it a couple days/season. Possible that the bluing occurs during high G loading on acceleration.
Joe
Joe
thank you
WOW... interesting. I've never had any transmissions but Muncies, OLD ford 3spds, and my MY6 that I have taken apart. I have never seen any discoloration of any gears...
if so, then what Jack at Legend said is true, a transmission can overheat (i'm not sure what would cause it tho, you wouldn't think a missed shift would...); and that was his reasoning for giving me the Monolec 1150 as a precautionary measure.
AND, I see it is a synthetic... controversial thought to SST Jeff's thinking that a synthetic may be too 'slippery'
WOW... interesting. I've never had any transmissions but Muncies, OLD ford 3spds, and my MY6 that I have taken apart. I have never seen any discoloration of any gears...
if so, then what Jack at Legend said is true, a transmission can overheat (i'm not sure what would cause it tho, you wouldn't think a missed shift would...); and that was his reasoning for giving me the Monolec 1150 as a precautionary measure.
AND, I see it is a synthetic... controversial thought to SST Jeff's thinking that a synthetic may be too 'slippery'
Not the missed shift. The input gear seems to be the most susceptible and my guess is that since it's at the front of the trans, that during hard straight line acceleration, the lube gets shoved to the rear leaving the front dry. This especially dangerous as that front gear is very highly loaded during this period of time.
I tried to devise a baffling system while it was apart but came up empty. That's why I decided to go synthetic, figuring that it should have greater film strength and might be more effective at higher temps.
PS: That spare input shaft/gear that I was fortunate enough to buy is a "special" RS600 only piece. Hybrid T45/RS600 very rare and very few available.
PPS: This from the RS66 install manual: DEXRON/MERCON ATF (non-synthetic) is the only approved fluid. Use of ANY other fluid will void your warranty. Keisler Engineering recommends that the fluid be replaced after the first 500-1000 miles of normal driving, and then every 30,000 miles thereafter.
Joe
Last edited by 65tripleblack; Feb 10, 2018 at 01:25 PM.
I STAND CORRECTED ON ALL OF WHAT I USED. (I HATE GETTING OLD!!). Disregard the pics of DEXTRON VI I posted here. Further examining my files on what I ended up using for my initial change at 1,000 miles AND what I used last summer IS MOBIL 1 ATF!
Here's a copy of correspondence I had with John Czahoroski, Tech Support at Keisler on April 26, 2013 (I returned/did not use all the DEXTRON VI I had purchased):
----- Original Message -----
From: John Czahoroski
To: 'Jim'
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 10:03 AM
Subject: RE: Your Speedo Gear Request
Hi Jim,
I talked to Dick McCord this morning, the engineer that designed the SS700, and he stated that the information that is in the instruction manual you received yesterday is correct. His official recommendation for a synthetic fluid is Mobil 1 Multi-Vehicle ATF. It is available at most auto parts stores like AutoZone, Advance, etc. I did make Shafi Keisler aware of the potential confusion with Mobil 1 and Dexron VI.
Regarding the Dexron VI, while Mr. McCord hasn't performed any tests to negate its use, he can only recommend what has been tested. In fact, since both fluids are premium synthetics, there are probably only insignificant differences in formulation or viscosity.
Hope this clears things up.
Thank you!
John Czahoroski
Customer Service / Tech Support / Sales
PPS: This from the RS66 install manual: DEXRON/MERCON ATF (non-synthetic) is the only approved fluid. Use of ANY other fluid will void your warranty. Keisler Engineering recommends that the fluid be replaced after the first 500-1000 miles of normal driving, and then every 30,000 miles thereafter.
Since I have no warranty, I broke the rules for the reasons stated above.
Reason I posted that is because sometimes there is no good reason for why certain things are recommended. Just as Silver Sport recommendation seems to conflict with LGT rec in your case.
As I said, I've had the non-recommended fluid in there for over 2 years now with no issues.
Since I have no warranty, I broke the rules for the reasons stated above.
Reason I posted that is because sometimes there is no good reason for why certain things are recommended. Just as Silver Sport recommendation seems to conflict with LGT rec in your case.
As I said, I've had the non-recommended fluid in there for over 2 years now with no issues.
I am kind of intrigued by Drothgeb's post #2; BUT I agree that what we are presently using is probably the best possible choice for wear and heat protection... whether it make synchronizers less effective, I don't have a clue....
Please see correction to my Post #8. Again I apologize for my senior moment. I had a senior moment too when I PM'd you that I have a 3.08 RER, it's 3.36...
I am kind of intrigued by Drothgeb's post #2; BUT I agree that what we are presently using is probably the best possible choice for wear and heat protection... whether it make synchronizers less effective, I don't have a clue....
Bill
Do some searching on Hy-Gard and Low Viscosity Hy-Gard, I think you’ll be pleased what you find. There’s a reason that it’s very popular with those running multi-thousand hp pulling tractors and trucks, mudboggers, and drag racers. It’s also very popular on the job site in dozers, track hoes and etc.
In my race truck, (which also doubles as my farm truck and sometimes daily driver), I used to run Amsoil ATF. Never really had any problems with it, but I’m type that likes to experiment. So, after hearing about results with Hy Gard, I tried it. Since then, I’ve switched just about everything not specifying a synthetic over and have been very happy with the results.
The trans in my truck has seen over 200 1/4 mile passes, plus driving, hauling and etc. Still going strong, with less material in the pan than I was seeing with the Amsoil. As a point of reference, the truck makes over 1000hp and 1800 ft/lb of torque. Weighs 6500lbs and does mid 10’s on regular Michelin LTX tires. So as far as wear and heat resistance, I’d say it’s a fairly good test. Before running Amsoil, I ran Dex III and Type IV ATF.
I’m not sure that it will stop the issue you’re having, but I have heard of it doing so in similar circumstances. Good Luck!
Do some searching on Hy-Gard and Low Viscosity Hy-Gard, I think you’ll be pleased what you find. There’s a reason that it’s very popular with those running multi-thousand hp pulling tractors and trucks, mudboggers, and drag racers. It’s also very popular on the job site in dozers, track hoes and etc.
In my race truck, (which also doubles as my farm truck and sometimes daily driver), I used to run Amsoil ATF. Never really had any problems with it, but I’m type that likes to experiment. So, after hearing about results with Hy Gard, I tried it. Since then, I’ve switched just about everything not specifying a synthetic over and have been very happy with the results.
The trans in my truck has seen over 200 1/4 mile passes, plus driving, hauling and etc. Still going strong, with less material in the pan than I was seeing with the Amsoil. As a point of reference, the truck makes over 1000hp and 1800 ft/lb of torque. Weighs 6500lbs and does mid 10’s on regular Michelin LTX tires. So as far as wear and heat resistance, I’d say it’s a fairly good test. Before running Amsoil, I ran Dex III and Type IV ATF.
I’m not sure that it will stop the issue you’re having, but I have heard of it doing so in similar circumstances. Good Luck!
thank you... again, I am intrigued...
my concern at this point (synchros aside) is that the SS700 supposedly has potential heat problems that the synthetics seem to address....
"Some of the earlier SS700 builds could possibly have shift linkage “catch”.
The shifter return springs were set to give a crisp cross car return to neutral and to assist with palm up 2-3 shift. If he doesn’t want that, then he can remove shifter return springs or cut a coil or 2 to shorten them and reduce the load.
The cold weather shifts would typically create the clash due to the “stiffer” oil viscosity not being wiped from the gear cone by the synchro rings. Higher temps in the summer would have light viscosity oil and more friction applied to gear cone and should result in crisper shift feel"
The shift linkage catch was present in early builds but with yours being 300+, I can't say this is or is not the issue without a teardown. We sent all of our LGT parts to Legend back in 2015 (which we are still owed thousands for) so I would not be able to service the trans here.
Jeff
Jeff
seeing as how the transmission was probably one of the last made, without tearing it down there is no way to tell what leftover parts may have been used. 6T5RUSH has 007 and he has never commented on a shift linkage catch, but I do have the symptom....
just the reverse about cold weather thickening of the oil is true in my case, cooler is better.. warmer is worse... now, you have indicated is the other post that synthetic may be too slippery, but forum members have opined that they are using various brands of synthetic with no ill effects.. PLUS there is the question as to heat bluing of the input gear.
AND, one fellow is using a non-synthetic tractor lube with no ill effects...
shifting is still an almost 2-handed effort through the neutral gate except for the ALMOST selfcentering of 3/4 slot, especially so to 5th and reverse; 1st/2nd slot ain't easy either... I don't reckon one could completely remove the springs as I would think the stick would just flop around.
is LGT still in business? other than the few T56 parts you mention, it seems like we own an orphan...
Here is my response regarding the synthetic oils from the other thread.
"The SS700 shares a lot of design characteristics with the T56 6 speed and some of the synchronizer parts and gears are exactly the same. TREMEC has required Dexron III ATF be used in the T56 for years and it works well. Typically, heavier oils will only increase the shift effort.
I've also seen some of the "boutique" type synthetic oils cause issues because they make things too slick. Synchronizers operate on friction and when you reduce that friction, things don't function properly."
I was not condemning all synthetic oils and Keisler even recommended Mobil 1 back in the SS700 days.
I can service the shifter and we have other springs that can be installed to reduce the side load; I would not remove them completely. You would simply just need to remove the shifter and ship it in. Whether this would be the magic pill or not, I do not know.
As to whether LGT is still in business or not, we do not maintain any relationship with them and that is a rabbit hole I will not go down again.
You might want to give John Deere Low Viscosity Hy-Gard a try. It exceeds the specs for Dextron III, but will handle much higher temps and has better lubricity with less friction modifiers.
I’ve been using it for years in my race truck. Shifts better and temps are down +/- 20 degrees after a pass. I’ve also heard that it will improve shifting in T56s with that notchy feel. From what you are describing, it may work for you.
Fairly inexpensive too. A gallon is ~$20. I buy 5 gallon buckets for $75, and use it in my tractor and transmissions that don’t require a synthetic.
Don
Don
I did a google search for HyGard Low Viscosity and read the label on the back of the jug; it says for use of maximum ambient temperature of 86 degrees.
Low viscosity hy-gard is an iso 32 lubricant. standard hy-gard and most other hydraulic oils are iso 46 or heavier. along with being suitable for hydraulic / hydrostatic applications, it is also suitable for gear transmissions.
and this from same site
Depending on the year in IH 1480/1680 combine finals used "hy-tran" IH's tractor hyd fluid or 80w-90 gear oil. I know first hand that the finals that ran in the gear oil had considerable LESS gear/bearing wear as compaired to the finals that used the THF, with same amount of hours.
ISO 32 fluid may be fine for gear transmissions of a light duty or just a plain hydraulic system.... I would have serious reservations about using it as a tractor/hyd. fluid
An oil's weight rating iso 32, iso 46, iso 68, 5w-20 and such has little to do with the additives that make the oil what it is intended for.
Yes, the Low Viscosity version is an ISO 32. And my recommendation was based on it being a better alternative to Dexron III or similar non synthetic ATFs, mainly due to your description of your shifting issues and the recommendation to use Dexron.
Regular Hy-Gard, which is ISO 56, may be a better choice for warmer climates. But, it’s not an acceptable alternative to Dex III. It would still offer better grip for the synchros, but shifting may be a little sluggish.
Can’t really compare it to gear oil, that’s kinda apples to oranges.
Ss700
