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Old Feb 13, 2018 | 10:33 AM
  #21  
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Why do you think it is not an acceptable alternative to Dex III? Viscosity?

And, why not comparable to gear oil? Viscosity?

In a transmission, additives are important
Bill
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Old Feb 13, 2018 | 04:35 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by wmf62
Why do you think it is not an acceptable alternative to Dex III? Viscosity?

And, why not comparable to gear oil? Viscosity?

In a transmission, additives are important
Bill
Yes, to me viscosity on both.

When some tried replacing Dexron with standard Hy-Gard, there was sometimes an issue with it flowing through the filter properly, especially when cold. It also lowered the stall of the torque converter by ~100 rpm.

As far as the gear oil. Considering the difference in viscosity, it would seem that if one worked well, the other couldn’t. For instance, running gear oil in an auto requiring Dexron would not likely work very well. And I wouldn’t expect Dexron to work well in a rear end either. While viscosity isn’t the only thing to consider, it is an important factor.
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Old Feb 13, 2018 | 07:26 PM
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I can understand why ATF is not used in a rear end; different kind of gears and loading

my understanding of the reason ATF came to be used in manual transmission is simple: fuel economy

Bill
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Old Feb 14, 2018 | 08:14 AM
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I have a Keissler RS400 (which Jeff sold me years ago) . Living in europe it's not been easy to find the correct fluid, I tried different dextron III brands but none went really smooth, just 'ok'. Then I consulted Paul Cangialosi at 5speeds.com, known to be kind of a vintage gearbox guru (like Muncie, makes great informative videos too). He advised PENNZOIL SYNCHROMESH MANUAL TRANSMISSION FLUID, which is a manual gearbox fluid! (I insisted if he was sure, and he was!).
So I gave it a try, and my gearbox has never been shifting better. That being said, remains to be seen how it goes in spring and summer temperatures.
Not sure this adds value to this thread, but cause it's an unusual 'fix' I just wanted to mention it
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Old Feb 14, 2018 | 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by alexandervdr
I have a Keissler RS400 (which Jeff sold me years ago) . Living in europe it's not been easy to find the correct fluid, I tried different dextron III brands but none went really smooth, just 'ok'. Then I consulted Paul Cangialosi at 5speeds.com, known to be kind of a vintage gearbox guru (like Muncie, makes great informative videos too). He advised PENNZOIL SYNCHROMESH MANUAL TRANSMISSION FLUID, which is a manual gearbox fluid! (I insisted if he was sure, and he was!).
So I gave it a try, and my gearbox has never been shifting better. That being said, remains to be seen how it goes in spring and summer temperatures.
Not sure this adds value to this thread, but cause it's an unusual 'fix' I just wanted to mention it
thank you for your input

one thing to consider that I didn't think of is that the SS700 doesn't use conventional brass synchro rings, they are Kevlar or some similar material

this is a quote from a Camaro forum by Jodys Transmissions

http://www.camaros.net/forums/27-tra...num-fluid.html

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Re: new T56 magnum fluid

Quote:
Originally Posted by workng247 View Post
Whats the best fluid for my new T56 magnum and how much (capacity)?

Sticker on trans says DEXIII only.

A search yielded lots of recommendations. Anything from Syncromesh to Amsoil to Mobile1 ATF.

I'm not normally a fan of overpriced fluids (I use Supertech in just about everything) but am open to suggestions on this one.

Thanks
I use to think the same thing about specialty fluids until I witnessed Lubrication Engineers Monolec 1150 topped off in the Legend700 on the spin tester.

The Monolec 1150 had the Legend700 running almost 35 degrees cooler at the tail extension bushing during performance spin testing. That is a huge statement when compared to the other mentioned fluids.

Legend Gear & Transmission was so impressed by the reduced temperature reading that all 2015 Legend700 units receive 4 quarts of the Monolec 1150 per shipment.


kinda difficult to toss expensive lube just to try something else..

Bill
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 01:36 AM
  #26  
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Default Maindrive overheat

I regards to the Legend GT transmission, the overheat is a design issue.
The Legend GT700 basically is a 5 speed version of a T56. Look at how much wider a T56 is.
Sometimes people try to make cases narrow, eliminate fins and do things that affect oil control and cooling in a negative manor. The fins and ribs on T56 T45 TKO and even the T5 create more surface area to dissipate heat just like fins on your car's radiator. Air circulates under the car passes thru the fins and cools it. Also OEM cases are thinner and are DieCast as opposed to thicker sand cast designs. So although the Legend box looks awesome aesthetically and solves clearance issues, its poorly designed to control oil internally and dissipate heat correctly.
Maindrive scuffing happens because as you drive forward, inertia pulls the oil towards the back of the case. Less oil stays in place to properly cool and lube the gears in the very front. If oil can't return fast enough and cool properly you end up with scuffed, heat checked and oil starved gears.

Ford Motorsport for example sells an air scoop for the newer Mustang transmissions because they overheat at high speeds.

I've used Royal Purple Synchromax successfully for endurace transmission applications for T56 and T5 equipped cars.
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 03:08 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by 4speeds
I regards to the Legend GT transmission, the overheat is a design issue.
The Legend GT700 basically is a 5 speed version of a T56. Look at how much wider a T56 is.
Sometimes people try to make cases narrow, eliminate fins and do things that affect oil control and cooling in a negative manor. The fins and ribs on T56 T45 TKO and even the T5 create more surface area to dissipate heat just like fins on your car's radiator. Air circulates under the car passes thru the fins and cools it. Also OEM cases are thinner and are DieCast as opposed to thicker sand cast designs. So although the Legend box looks awesome aesthetically and solves clearance issues, its poorly designed to control oil internally and dissipate heat correctly.
Maindrive scuffing happens because as you drive forward, inertia pulls the oil towards the back of the case. Less oil stays in place to properly cool and lube the gears in the very front. If oil can't return fast enough and cool properly you end up with scuffed, heat checked and oil starved gears.

Ford Motorsport for example sells an air scoop for the newer Mustang transmissions because they overheat at high speeds.

I've used Royal Purple Synchromax successfully for endurace transmission applications for T56 and T5 equipped cars.
based on this, then 'ATF' of any sort is not the best/correct lube to be used in the SS700?
Bill
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 09:10 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by 4speeds
I regards to the Legend GT transmission, the overheat is a design issue.
The Legend GT700 basically is a 5 speed version of a T56. Look at how much wider a T56 is.
Sometimes people try to make cases narrow, eliminate fins and do things that affect oil control and cooling in a negative manor. The fins and ribs on T56 T45 TKO and even the T5 create more surface area to dissipate heat just like fins on your car's radiator. Air circulates under the car passes thru the fins and cools it. Also OEM cases are thinner and are DieCast as opposed to thicker sand cast designs. So although the Legend box looks awesome aesthetically and solves clearance issues, its poorly designed to control oil internally and dissipate heat correctly.
Maindrive scuffing happens because as you drive forward, inertia pulls the oil towards the back of the case. Less oil stays in place to properly cool and lube the gears in the very front. If oil can't return fast enough and cool properly you end up with scuffed, heat checked and oil starved gears.

Ford Motorsport for example sells an air scoop for the newer Mustang transmissions because they overheat at high speeds.

I've used Royal Purple Synchromax successfully for endurace transmission applications for T56 and T5 equipped cars.
I would agree with most of this and perhaps all of it.

I witnessed the overheating in the Legend test car during development and the air scoop had to be added to get the trans temp down. Regarding the oil control, I remember there being a lot of time spent on analyzing internal components after running the trans on the spin machine 24/7 for a week. A pneumatic mechanism was used to shift through all forward gear positions as well. The only oiling issue I recall was related to the slip yoke bushing which was corrected. I understand this isn't real world use, just sharing a recollection.

I also remember the oil capacity being adjusted down from the original recommendation. I do not recall what the original capacity specs were but the final recommendation was between 3 qts-3 oz to 3 qts-6 oz. If the trans was filled in the traditional manner (bottom of the fill hole) it would be overfilled.

Things are very tightly packed inside the case for sure and I have attached some photos of an engineering sample that was used to verify shift component interaction. I apologize for the photo quality, this is up in our "attic."
Attached Images           
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 09:26 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by SilverOverdrives
I would agree with most of this and perhaps all of it.

I witnessed the overheating in the Legend test car during development and the air scoop had to be added to get the trans temp down. Regarding the oil control, I remember there being a lot of time spent on analyzing internal components after running the trans on the spin machine 24/7 for a week. A pneumatic mechanism was used to shift through all forward gear positions as well. The only oiling issue I recall was related to the slip yoke bushing which was corrected. I understand this isn't real world use, just sharing a recollection.

I also remember the oil capacity being adjusted down from the original recommendation. I do not recall what the original capacity specs were but the final recommendation was between 3 qts-3 oz to 3 qts-6 oz. If the trans was filled in the traditional manner (bottom of the fill hole) it would be overfilled.

Things are very tightly packed inside the case for sure and I have attached some photos of an engineering sample that was used to verify shift component interaction. I apologize for the photo quality, this is up in our "attic."
thank you for the pix and thoughts..

never heard about the overfill specifically; kinda tough to not 'overfill';. what is the danger in overfilling other than leaks?

as to Jodys comments; is 'ATF' the right/best/correct lube?


Bill
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 09:55 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by SilverOverdrives
I would agree with most of this and perhaps all of it.

I witnessed the overheating in the Legend test car during development and the air scoop had to be added to get the trans temp down. Regarding the oil control, I remember there being a lot of time spent on analyzing internal components after running the trans on the spin machine 24/7 for a week. A pneumatic mechanism was used to shift through all forward gear positions as well. The only oiling issue I recall was related to the slip yoke bushing which was corrected. I understand this isn't real world use, just sharing a recollection.

I also remember the oil capacity being adjusted down from the original recommendation. I do not recall what the original capacity specs were but the final recommendation was between 3 qts-3 oz to 3 qts-6 oz. If the trans was filled in the traditional manner (bottom of the fill hole) it would be overfilled.

Things are very tightly packed inside the case for sure and I have attached some photos of an engineering sample that was used to verify shift component interaction. I apologize for the photo quality, this is up in our "attic."
Jeff,
I can verify that there is indeed a condition affecting the T45 (RS600) and so, likely the SS transmissions as well. The condition is oil starvation to the input gear. I opened mine to fix a cracked fork and found the input gear blued. I would attribute this to oil sloshing rearward under acceleration. I overfill mine now and use Amsoil:

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...n-fluid-5w-30/

I can't say whether or not the condition persists.

See an earlier post of mine in this thread.

Joe
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 10:18 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by wmf62
thank you for the pix and thoughts..

never heard about the overfill specifically; kinda tough to not 'overfill';. what is the danger in overfilling other than leaks?

as to Jodys comments; is 'ATF' the right/best/correct lube?


Bill
Leakage wasn't the issue, it was related to oiling or contributed to the overheating, one of the two. I can't remember exactly and neither does Dick. Been too long...

The last oil we carried for the LGT trans was the Monolec based solely on their recommendation.
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 10:30 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 65tripleblack
Jeff,
I can verify that there is indeed a condition affecting the T45 (RS600) and so, likely the SS transmissions as well. The condition is oil starvation to the input gear. I opened mine to fix a cracked fork and found the input gear blued. I would attribute this to oil sloshing rearward under acceleration. I overfill mine now and use Amsoil:

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...n-fluid-5w-30/

I can't say whether or not the condition persists.

See an earlier post of mine in this thread.

Joe
The RS600 (modified T45) and the LGT700 are two totally different animals. There will be similarities simply due to the link to original Borg Warner T5/T45/T56 designs but nothing more.

The RS600 was available in a Gen 1 and a Gen 2 so to speak.

Gen 1 had the OE 3.37 first gear cut off the input shaft and the new 2.xx gear EB welded on. This might explain the bluing you saw.

Gen 2 used an entirely new input shaft and I may still have some of these. We have a small stash of T45/RS parts still and I would like for them to find a new home.
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 10:40 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by SilverOverdrives
The RS600 (modified T45) and the LGT700 are two totally different animals. There will be similarities simply due to the link to original Borg Warner T5/T45/T56 designs but nothing more.

The RS600 was available in a Gen 1 and a Gen 2 so to speak.

Gen 1 had the OE 3.37 first gear cut off the input shaft and the new 2.xx gear EB welded on. This might explain the bluing you saw.

Gen 2 used an entirely new input shaft and I may still have some of these. We have a small stash of T45/RS parts still and I would like for them to find a new home.
Jeff,

RS Close Ratio & Standard Ratio Gearsets

Standard Ratio Gearset - 3.37, 1.99, 1.34, 1.0, .67 (1.38 step change in 1st, 33% RPM drop in overdrive)
RS400 (400 torque): 1-1/16 x 10 spline input shaft, SAE 8620 nickel-moly steel alloy
RS500 (500 torque): 1-1/8 x 26 spline input shaft, SAE 9310 chrome-nickel-moly high strength steel alloy, CNC ground gears

Close Ratio Gearset (new)- 2.80, 1.99, 1.34, 1.0, .67 (.81 step change in 1st, 33% drop in overdrive)
RS600 (600 torque): 1-1/8 x 26 spline input shaft, SAE 9310 chrome-nickel-moly high strength steel alloy, CNC ground gears

Mine is "second generation" (RS600)

Please email what you have.
Thanks
Joe
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 01:41 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by SilverOverdrives
Leakage wasn't the issue, it was related to oiling or contributed to the overheating, one of the two. I can't remember exactly and neither does Dick. Been too long...

The last oil we carried for the LGT trans was the Monolec based solely on their recommendation.
The monolec is what Jack at LGT gave me to use and I'm still using it

Bill
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Old Feb 16, 2018 | 11:54 PM
  #35  
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Default Confirming amount of trans fluid in SS700

I agree with what Jeff at SilverOverdrives said about the amount of tranny fluid to use in these SS700 transmissions. I forgot about the cd Shafi Keisler sent me which video'd the install of this transmission into my '65 small block back in Dec. of 2012. About 80% into the video Shafi states to use "between 3 quarts, 3 ounces and 3 quarts 6 ounces of, at that time, Dextron III, Dextron VI, or Mobil 1 ATF". Apparently that is critical (the amount to use) in filling vs the "fill it till it overflows" approach with the Muncies/BorgWarners.

Here's a link to that video:


I've had no issues with this transmission using Mobil 1 ATF since draining the Dextron VI at the first 1,000 miles.

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Old Feb 17, 2018 | 04:54 AM
  #36  
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Jim
thank you for the video

I still would like to know the reasoning for not 'overfilling' the transmission?

Bill
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Old Feb 18, 2018 | 12:53 PM
  #37  
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John has suggested that ‘overfilling’ the transmission may flood the synchros and slow the ‘slowing’ of the synchro engagement; thereby causing clash on fast shifts. Therefore filling to the ‘correct’ level may alleviate the clash...

there is some theoretical logic to this, especially if you look at the pictures of the cutaway transmission. It appears as if the fill plug is possibly mid shaft...

any thoughts/facts?

Bill
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Old Feb 19, 2018 | 04:10 AM
  #38  
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Hi,

I want to add a bit to the discussion here from Germany. I was like Bill one of the last ones who received the SS700 from Keisler. I believe my gear box has production number 385 or so.

Noise related it works ok after a couple of thousands miles. But it still has mechanical noises. However, when the gear box becomes hot I sometimes have problems to shift into 4th gear from third. I have to pull the shift stick quite hard to get it into the right position. And it then feels spongy. This happens perhaps in one of 30 times. But it is annoying, because you never know for sure if you hit the gear correctly.

I tried heavier oil for manual gear boxes, but this made the problem even worse. Now I am back to synthetic ATF oil from Mobil. I also probably overfilled it, but I can’t imagine that this shifting issue improves with less oil.

Tobias
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Old Feb 19, 2018 | 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tuner63
Hi,

I want to add a bit to the discussion here from Germany. I was like Bill one of the last ones who received the SS700 from Keisler. I believe my gear box has production number 385 or so.

Noise related it works ok after a couple of thousands miles. But it still has mechanical noises. However, when the gear box becomes hot I sometimes have problems to shift into 4th gear from third. I have to pull the shift stick quite hard to get it into the right position. And it then feels spongy. This happens perhaps in one of 30 times. But it is annoying, because you never know for sure if you hit the gear correctly.

I tried heavier oil for manual gear boxes, but this made the problem even worse. Now I am back to synthetic ATF oil from Mobil. I also probably overfilled it, but I can’t imagine that this shifting issue improves with less oil.

Tobias
Tobias
Thank you for sharing. I wonder if whatever we are experiencing is simply limited to the 'later' transmissions as there seems to be no 'complaints' from anyone else... Granted, not all were installed in corvettes, so we don't know if anyone else is having problems. OR, maybe we are the anomoly
My problems are 2/3 related, yours is 4th (and I presume no other gears). Interesting

It is such a PIA to r&r the transmission, so unless something gets worse I will try to live with it. There seems to be no answers or magic potions...

If I did remove it I probably would go back to the MY6; I really don't need a 5th gear.....just an OD

Bill
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