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Lots of dealer-bashing and I'm guilt too at times; but one "pro"...
If you get screwed you have some recourse against a viable company; through complaints, the BBB and other venues...with a private seller who doesn't have a corporate reputation to defend ? Prob not...
I don't know, the internet can be a cruel place to a private seller that has burned someone. I saw a Craigslist ad for a 72 Yamaha 125 MX. I was going to go look at it, but then saw multiple negative posts about the seller.
That's the key. I bought my '67 from the same dealer 6 years ago. I paid to have it checked out by someone who knew what they were looking at. It passed the check, I bought it, and I've lived happily ever after. As many here know, the dealer even brought the car back to his store and fixed a problem at no charge after the "as-is" sale.
You can get a "pig with lipstick" from a private seller just as easily as from a dealer if you don't check it out. Have I had maintenance and repairs in the past 6 years? Yes. But that's part of the bargain you make when you "live with an old car".
Sorry you had a bad experience. I suppose everyone who buys a car has a story, both good and bad. Sorry yours was bad but I was happy with my transaction and would buy from that dealer again .
Steve
First of all, I'm not an "after the fact whiner", but this dealer stated in the ad for the car that it "was matching numbers" with an NCRS sticker on the window, but when checked by an expert, the carb and the rear end came from another car. When confronted, this dealer pointed out that the bill of sale said, "as is". Live and learn! Be thankful that you got what you paid for.
Last edited by William Buckley; Apr 27, 2018 at 09:04 AM.
Reason: addition
There are honest private sellers and honest dealers, there are also dealers who are lying thieves and private individuals who are lying thieves. With a little effort and research, you can get an idea who the good and bad dealers might be. With a private seller, you're pretty much limited to your gut feelings about the seller.
When buying from a dealer, you'll likely pay more. Dealers have overhead, the individual doesn't. Dealers have mortgages, property taxes, payroll, payroll taxes, insurance, interest on their inventory, etc. All off these things add to the price of a car.
On the plus side, dealers can finance a car, they do the paperwork, they can arrange shipping, and are more likely to let you test drive a car. Dealers often have a lift, making it easier to inspect a car. Dealers will take another collector car as a trade, or take it on consignment. Many dealers will also stand behind a car, at least for a short period of time.
You can usually buy a car for less, from a private seller. A private seller usually knows more about the car, it's history, and what repairs/restoration has been done to it. Private sellers often have paperwork and spare or left over parts, that they're willing to include with the sale.
On the down side, when buying privately, you need to arrange your own financing and transport, and do your own paperwork. A lot of private sellers aren't to willing to let a perfect stranger, test drive their valuable collector car either.
There are pluses and minuses, no matter how and where you buy a car. In the end, it comes down to doing your due diligence and buying from the seller you're most comfortable with.
First of all, I'm not an "after the fact whiner", but this dealer stated in the ad for the car that it "was matching numbers" with an NCRS sticker on the window, but when checked by an expert, the carb and the rear end came from another car. When confronted, this dealer pointed out that the bill of sale said, "as is". Live and learn! Be thankful that you got what you paid for.
I'm betting we've all gotten the short end of the stick on a deal at some point. I know I have. That's why "trust but verify" is crucial. My car was also advertised as numbers matching by the same dealer. I didn't verify that claim because it wasn't important to me. Original engine was important to me and I verified that. As it turns out, the transmission doesn't match. It has numbers from a '66. No big deal to me.
And then there is the issue of what does "numbers matching" mean? There are so many interpretations that the term has become nearly meaningless. Does it mean all 3 major driveline components were born with the car (the definition when I was a young guy)? Or, every part with a number on it was born with the car? Or, parts have been replaced but restamped with numbers matching? Or, in my case, engine number matches the differential number?
Anyway, I must say that your car is gorgeous. I really like it. Yellow was on my short list of colors when I was looking, along with white, Mossport, and trophy blue.
First of all, I'm not an "after the fact whiner", but this dealer stated in the ad for the car that it "was matching numbers" with an NCRS sticker on the window, but when checked by an expert, the carb and the rear end came from another car. When confronted, this dealer pointed out that the bill of sale said, "as is". Live and learn! Be thankful that you got what you paid for.
Nevertheless, its a great looking midyear. Enjoy while you can
Yes. It looked great when I bought it cosmetically, but needed new suspension front and rear, steering, tires, wheels, engine work, and rear end work. If I had someone knowledgeable check it out, I would not have had to do this work now at my expense. Car was delivered to me with 14 year old tires and three wheels matched while the fourth did not. Live and learn! The "pig" had "lipstick", in problems that I did not recognize when buying.
Did you buy the car sight unseen? Normally that would be a recipe for disaster. If it's the same car from the dealer I think it is, then thank your lucky stars; you purchased a lovely automobile. All the issues you complain of are to be expected with a 50 year old car, and then some. Just by looking at pictures on the website, anyone with a little bit of knowledge could have told you about the tires and rear suspension bushings.
Did you buy the car sight unseen? Normally that would be a recipe for disaster. If it's the same car from the dealer I think it is, then thank your lucky stars; you purchased a lovely automobile. All the issues you complain of are to be expected with a 50 year old car, and then some. Just by looking at pictures on the website, anyone with a little bit of knowledge could have told you about the tires and rear suspension bushings.
I did see the car before I bought it, but he promised to put radials on before it was delivered to me. Turned out the radials were 14 years old and it started throwing hubcaps because of the wrong wheels installed on the car. I did not expect a totally restored car ..... just one that was in the shape as advertised. The numbers did not match and it did not qualify for the NCRS decal on the window. A purchaser only expects what they were told about the car. I'm sure the dealer appreciates your sticking up for him, but his ad was not authentic for this car.
Last edited by William Buckley; Apr 27, 2018 at 11:49 AM.
Reason: addition
What does having a NCRS sticker on the car have to do with anything. I have on on my Chevelle and see them all the time on newer non Vettes.
I did not know that my post was going to turn into an inquisition. I'll try to have my story book bound if some of you are interested.
I purchased the car seeing it, and being shown the Barrett Jackson photos, invoice, and the NCRS sticker on the window. Was assured that numbers were matching. I asked to have the biased belted tires changed out for delivery to my city. Turns out that he replaced those with 14 year old radials and the car was throwing hubcaps. Turns out that the wheels on the car did not have the dimples on them to hold the hubcaps and three were one size and the other wheel was another size. I had to replace the wheels also. Are there anymore questions?
On checking, I found that the carb and the rear end were not matching numbers like he said. I have had work done that I expected for a 52 year old car, but the car was not in the condition that the seller promised in his literature and ad. I SHOULD HAVE HAD THE CAR CHECKED BY SOMEONE REPUTABLE BEFORE I PURCHASED IT!
Last edited by William Buckley; Apr 27, 2018 at 01:38 PM.
Reason: addition
I did not know that my post was going to turn into an inquisition. I'll try to have my story book bound if some of you are interested.
I purchased the car seeing it, and being shown the Barrett Jackson photos, invoice, and the NCRS sticker on the window. Was assured that numbers were matching. I asked to have the biased belted tires changed out for delivery to my city. Turns out that he replaced those with 14 year old radials and the car was throwing hubcaps. Turns out that the wheels on the car did not have the dimples on them to hold the hubcaps and three were one size and the other wheel was another size. I had to replace the wheels also. Are there anymore questions?
On checking, I found that the carb and the rear end were not matching numbers like he said. I have had work done that I expected for a 52 year old car, but the car was not in the condition that the seller promised in his literature and ad. I SHOULD HAVE HAD THE CAR CHECKED BY SOMEONE REPUTABLE BEFORE I PURCHASED IT!
your post is very valid on this subject. but you assumed the dealer was telling the truth but all the mean time he lied to you. did you "pay" extra for new tires or was that part of the deal?
I did not know that my post was going to turn into an inquisition. I'll try to have my story book bound if some of you are interested.
You have explicitly accused a dealer of ripping you off. This is a dealer who most others have given positive feedback on. Your posts indicate that you made a number of invalid assumptions, not the least of which was believing that an NCRS sticker in the window somehow guaranteed carburetor and rear end would be "numbers matching." Folks here have diplomatically tried to point out that your lack of knowledge and failure to seek the advice of someone who is better informed are the reasons for your disappointment.
Sellers, whether dealers or private parties, are under no obligation to educate prospective buyers on all the finer points of the Corvette hobby, i.e., the meaning of "matching numbers" or the significance of an NCRS sticker. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's just not fair to blame a seller for one's own ignorance.
your post is very valid on this subject. but you assumed the dealer was telling the truth but all the mean time he lied to you. did you "pay" extra for new tires or was that part of the deal?
I threatened legal action, and he sent four new tires, but I had to buy four new OEM Corvette wheels to match up and hold the hub caps on tightly. They were not cheap as I could not find any used ones anywhere. The car is in a restoration shop now, but I have learned a valuable and expensive lesson about re-sellers.
"Sellers, whether dealers or private parties, are under no obligation to educate prospective buyers on all the finer points of the Corvette hobby, i.e., the meaning of "matching numbers" or the significance of an NCRS sticker. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's just not fair to blame a seller for one's own ignorance." Your quote from SW Vette!
I'm going to be blunt also, and tell you to mind your own business. People are in business to make a profit, but not to sell defective merchandise under false pretenses to make that profit. He sold another car to a forum member with the "matching numbers" story, and it was not true for that sale either. You might be a know it all and accept this in California, but we do not accept it where I live! It's called being dishonest to make a sale and not being truthful! Your profile photo shows a "know it all millennial", so suck it up buttercup! You might change your viewpoint when you grow up.
Last edited by William Buckley; Apr 27, 2018 at 04:31 PM.
It's starting to sound like my idea of charging for full disclosure is not so crazy after all.
Honest, forthright, disclosure should be the right of every buyer of any product to stop fraud. And I'm not sure that someone should have to pay for that information except in California!
Honest, forthright, disclosure should be the right of every buyer of any product to stop fraud. And I'm not sure that someone should have to pay for that information except in California!
It doesn't much matter how any of us thing the world should be, it is the way it is. I was simply offering a way for the buyer to have confidence that the information offered was accurate and complete. Getting information for free makes me think it is likely incomplete and possibly misleading though technically accurate.
I'm going to be blunt also, and tell you to mind your own business. People are in business to make a profit, but not to sell defective merchandise under false pretenses to make that profit. He sold another car to a forum member with the "matching numbers" story, and it was not true for that sale either. You might be a know it all and accept this in California, but we do not accept it where I live! It's called being dishonest to make a sale and not being truthful! Your profile photo shows a "know it all millennial", so suck it up buttercup! You might change your viewpoint when you grow up.
You may be referring to another forum member about the matching numbers issue but if you're referring to the matching numbers issue I mentioned, let me be clear. My car was advertised as "matching numbers". I did not ask which definition of matching numbers the dealer was using. As it turned out, my '67 car has a '66 transmission. BUT, I didn't care about the drivetrain matching, only that the engine was original (matching numbers) to the car. So my car IS matching numbers if you use the "engine/body matches" definition of the term. And I verified that match because it was important to me and it was my "due diligence" responsibility to check it. I didn't check the tranny or differential because I didn't care if they matched. If I had cared, it was my responsibility to verify.
I wish the "matching numbers" term would fade into oblivion. It's meaningless. Or maybe change it so it actually defines WHAT MATCHES WHAT like:
matching numbers (engine, transmission, differential)
matching numbers (engine, chassis)
matching numbers (all numbered parts)
matching numbers (most numbered parts)
matching numbers (some numbered parts)
But I don't anticipate a change happening so it's buyer beware because the term means nothing anymore.
As far as having to spend money after the purchase, that's normal. When I started looking for a car, a wise person here on the forum told me to be sure to have a couple of thousand dollars left in your pocket when you buy your car because, no matter how perfect your car seems, you're going to spend that within the first year.
I don't know what to say about the NCRS sticker. I think I have one on my shop cart. It only signifies membership or just liking the sticker and wanting to display it. An NCRS restored car would most-likely have paperwork and restoration photos.
Hopefully, you haven't let your initial disappointment with your car dampen your enjoyment of owning it. It's a very nice car. You should be proud to own it.
Putting the "matching numbers" issue aside, I believe that the issue of credibility lies with the person selling the vehicle to provide the truth about this vehicle to the best of their ability. The poster from California seems to indicate that is the job of the buyer to determine if the seller is telling the truth. If this is the case, I have a real problem with my food store, pharmacy, doctor, my car dealership, and the person that I may buy real estate from. No one needs to tell the truth because it's up to the buyer to determine what is going on according to his post. The seller is never to blame.
The photos and invoices from Barrett Jackson, as well as the NCRS decal led me to believe what my seller said was true about his claims. Why else would he have shown them to me? And then deliver the car to my house with 14 year old tires and three wheels of one size and one of another?
And to your statement. I am very pleased with the car and am enjoying it. It's the seller that I have a problem with.
Last edited by William Buckley; Apr 27, 2018 at 07:56 PM.
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