Another starter problem
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 946
Likes: 266
From: McMinnville Oregon
Well I found a wiring diagram for the 57 Chrysler. What I'm trying to understand is why the Chevy has three contacts on the starter/solenoid and the Chrysler only has two. I guess the Chrysler and Ford both had the "starter relay" in front of the Solenoid also.
Another curious point: the hot wire direct from the Batt goes to the top post on the Solenoid and the wire to the coil comes from that post also. So that would seem to mean the + post on the coil is hot all the time. I don't think that's a good thing, so I checked the Porsche and the Mini and both those posts are cold with the key off. What in the devil does that mean?? Is that Chrysler or what.
Then both Chrysler and Chevy show two wires going to the bottom of the resistor in front of the coil, one from the starter solenoid and one from the ignition switch. Looks to me that the + post on the coil is hot always????? Could this be the old way as my Porsche is 15 years newer and the Mini 36 years newer.
Another curious point: the hot wire direct from the Batt goes to the top post on the Solenoid and the wire to the coil comes from that post also. So that would seem to mean the + post on the coil is hot all the time. I don't think that's a good thing, so I checked the Porsche and the Mini and both those posts are cold with the key off. What in the devil does that mean?? Is that Chrysler or what.
Then both Chrysler and Chevy show two wires going to the bottom of the resistor in front of the coil, one from the starter solenoid and one from the ignition switch. Looks to me that the + post on the coil is hot always????? Could this be the old way as my Porsche is 15 years newer and the Mini 36 years newer.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2016
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From: Olive branch Ms
On the starter solenoid you should have the battery hooked to the top lug, as you do. The switch hooks to the small terminal bringing 12v to energize the magnet in the solenoid. When the magnet is on it pulls the arm to engage the bendix and sends 12v from the top lug to the bottom lug to power the starter motor. I have seen the connector that goes from lug to lug internally stick which would keep the starter engaged. I see 2 wires disconnected to the top solenoid. You don't say where they go. I would remove the extra solenoid and wire the starter correctly. With the 3 wire starter setup you will not have the capability to run switched 12v to the + side of the coil as it was originally wired. The 12v went to the coil for full voltage during starts but when the switch is in run it ran off of the resistor at maybe 8v. If you have full time 12v to your msd then they have to be using switched ground to it. Otherwise the coil would never cut off. I would fix that as well. It's possible that they are using the second solenoid to send the ground to the msd but that would be a really backwards way of getting there. This is basic stuff and you already know it just say so so and I will delete the post.
Last edited by Robert61; Aug 11, 2019 at 06:11 PM.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 946
Likes: 266
From: McMinnville Oregon
So today I took my home made wiring diagram and the one for the 57 Chrysler and 65 Corvette down to the guy at Napa. We agreed on not hooking up one of the wires and see if it helped. NOPE, still the same problem, you can't shut off the starter once it starts.
So I went thru all the wires again 3 times from the batt to the coil, the solenoid and what they call the starter relay plus the agreed on not to hook up one wire to the coil. Well the wire we felt shouldn't be hooked up was actually the only way to get power to the ignition switch and the fuel pump. But even after that on my second attempt it stayed on again and I had to disconnect the batt to stop it.
Well the only think I haven't changed is the ignition switch. When I had it out it felt tight and checked on my ohm meter but who knows until I replace it, which I'm in the process of doing right now. Phew!!!!!!!
So I went thru all the wires again 3 times from the batt to the coil, the solenoid and what they call the starter relay plus the agreed on not to hook up one wire to the coil. Well the wire we felt shouldn't be hooked up was actually the only way to get power to the ignition switch and the fuel pump. But even after that on my second attempt it stayed on again and I had to disconnect the batt to stop it.
Well the only think I haven't changed is the ignition switch. When I had it out it felt tight and checked on my ohm meter but who knows until I replace it, which I'm in the process of doing right now. Phew!!!!!!!
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 4,617
Likes: 1,547
From: Olive branch Ms
When you disconnect the battery and hook it back up what happens. If it's not engaged then I would be looking at a bad solenoid. They have a large copper washer inside that contacts the to lugs, poles whatever you want to call them. Over time they can become soft and burned which can cause them to stick.
I feel your pain. There's a part on my BMW that's called a Final Stage Unit. It's basically a huge heat sink that controls the AC/ heat blower speed. The blower is hooked to 12v full time and the FSU absorbs voltage to cause the fan to run slower at lower speed settings. When they fail normally it's wide open. I've replaced this thing at least 6/7 times encluding 3 months ago. It stuck at full speed today and even with the switch off the fan continued to blow wide open. What's a person that doesn't know how to work on cars supposed to do at that point. Sunday I was working with on my truck which I put a rebuilt AC Delco starter on a few months back. The solenoid is bad and the auto parts places don't sell just the solenoid. I had to order a replacement online. So much for buying AC Delco.
I feel your pain. There's a part on my BMW that's called a Final Stage Unit. It's basically a huge heat sink that controls the AC/ heat blower speed. The blower is hooked to 12v full time and the FSU absorbs voltage to cause the fan to run slower at lower speed settings. When they fail normally it's wide open. I've replaced this thing at least 6/7 times encluding 3 months ago. It stuck at full speed today and even with the switch off the fan continued to blow wide open. What's a person that doesn't know how to work on cars supposed to do at that point. Sunday I was working with on my truck which I put a rebuilt AC Delco starter on a few months back. The solenoid is bad and the auto parts places don't sell just the solenoid. I had to order a replacement online. So much for buying AC Delco.
Last edited by Robert61; Aug 12, 2019 at 10:10 PM.
Le Mans Master
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If the starter starts working with the key but will not stop until the battery is disconnected it can be only two things now, the ignition switch or the relay. So do this. Jump the two big terminals on the starter relay with each end of a jumper cable which will start the starter. Immediatly removing it will stop it, and that will rule out the starter, leaving the relay, ignition switch and wiring as suspects.
The relay coil is either being energized with the key in the run position or the relay contacts are sticking, which is unusual. I think it is your switch. Try that and report back.
We are all on the edge of our chair...
Dan
Last edited by dplotkin; Aug 13, 2019 at 10:49 AM.
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Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 946
Likes: 266
From: McMinnville Oregon
Looking into the ignition switch today. Chevy dealer says there's only one dealer in the U.S. that has a stock one available. Will call him today. AutoZone says they have one available that I can look at this morning. I'll take mine over there and compare. AutoZone want's from $17 to $50 for theirs. I think I saw one on Ebay for $140 and will call and find out about the other one at some Chevy dealer back east.
I know what you mean about sitting on the edge of your chair. This is Oregon and summer is nearing the end and my convertible is sitting in the garage up on the lift. Missing all the good driving wx.
I know what you mean about sitting on the edge of your chair. This is Oregon and summer is nearing the end and my convertible is sitting in the garage up on the lift. Missing all the good driving wx.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Kannapolis NC
I think you're wasting your time and money on an ignition switch. all you have to do is turn the key to the start position with ignition wire disconnected from the solenoid. you should get 12 volts on The wire, when you turn loose the 12-volt should go away. If it does you don't have an ignition switch problem.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 946
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From: McMinnville Oregon
I had already checked the ignition switch with my ohm meter and it looked good. Then yesterday as I was looking again on the internet I got up and went out in the garage. I had a good battery on my shelf. I hooked up the 12v to the batt connection on the switch and yes when I turn it on I had 12v at the IGN terminal. When I turned the switch to start I had 12v to the solenoid terminal, but, when I let the switch go back to the IGN on I still had 3v on the solenoid terminal. Played with it a little and would always get around 3v on the solenoid with the switch in the run position.
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3 volts and the current it carries is insufficient to activate the solenoid. I think it's a red herring.
Without a full understanding and examination of the wiring it is going to be all but impossible for us to help you. Back-feed was previously mentioned as a possibility. You mentioned that the fuel pump runs with the ignition switch on. It is possible that the starter solenoid is being held closed by the fuel pump circuit although I'm not sure I know how. I think you're at the point where you need some help from someone with automotive electrical experience.
If I were in your shoes at this point I would remove all the wiring from the starter the solenoid fuel pump and battery. I get myself some nice wire, connectors, and shrink wrap and I would sketch out the way the circuit should work and wire it that way.
Dan
Without a full understanding and examination of the wiring it is going to be all but impossible for us to help you. Back-feed was previously mentioned as a possibility. You mentioned that the fuel pump runs with the ignition switch on. It is possible that the starter solenoid is being held closed by the fuel pump circuit although I'm not sure I know how. I think you're at the point where you need some help from someone with automotive electrical experience.
If I were in your shoes at this point I would remove all the wiring from the starter the solenoid fuel pump and battery. I get myself some nice wire, connectors, and shrink wrap and I would sketch out the way the circuit should work and wire it that way.
Dan
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 946
Likes: 266
From: McMinnville Oregon
UPDATE
Well the new ignition switch didn't help. So the next step, as suggested on the BangShift forum, is a diode from the solenoid to the resister inline with the coil to prevent feedback. Which was suggested by another poster. Got one already made up from Jegs again as suggested by another poster.
Thanks youall for all your help. I'll get it running sooner or later.
Missed the big car show/draggin the gut in downtown McMinnville this year. So after the show they drive back/forth thru old town 3rd street. I'll pickup my grandson and 'drag the gut' in the 72 Porsche 911, then run home and get the Classic Mini Cooper and make a few more passes.
Well the new ignition switch didn't help. So the next step, as suggested on the BangShift forum, is a diode from the solenoid to the resister inline with the coil to prevent feedback. Which was suggested by another poster. Got one already made up from Jegs again as suggested by another poster.
Thanks youall for all your help. I'll get it running sooner or later.
Missed the big car show/draggin the gut in downtown McMinnville this year. So after the show they drive back/forth thru old town 3rd street. I'll pickup my grandson and 'drag the gut' in the 72 Porsche 911, then run home and get the Classic Mini Cooper and make a few more passes.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 946
Likes: 266
From: McMinnville Oregon
CorvetteMikeB
Yeah I'm just about up to that point. Something in the starter is causing it to NOT retract when you turn the key back to run. With the drive in the forward, engaged, position it is getting power from the normal battery source which allows it to continue to run.
Running back down to Napa today and if he can't diagnose the problem in the starter I'll just buy a new one.
Yeah I'm just about up to that point. Something in the starter is causing it to NOT retract when you turn the key back to run. With the drive in the forward, engaged, position it is getting power from the normal battery source which allows it to continue to run.
Running back down to Napa today and if he can't diagnose the problem in the starter I'll just buy a new one.
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I have an external ford type solenoid powering the chev starter on the 327 motor in my '37 Ford truck.
The external solenoid sends power to the main post of the Chev solenoid, and there is jumper wire from the main post on the Chev solenoid to the S terminal on the Chev solenoid. There is no ballast bypass wire on the Chev solenoid. Just that one big cable to the Chev starter.
Once the ford solenoid is un energized, there is no power to the chev starter, at all.
Something to consider.
I don't remember why exactly i choose to wire it this way, other than the Ford solenoid on the firewall is great place to tap off a bunch of 8, 10 and 12 ga wires to other stuff like the alternator, main fuse box, relays, etc..
Doug
The external solenoid sends power to the main post of the Chev solenoid, and there is jumper wire from the main post on the Chev solenoid to the S terminal on the Chev solenoid. There is no ballast bypass wire on the Chev solenoid. Just that one big cable to the Chev starter.
Once the ford solenoid is un energized, there is no power to the chev starter, at all.
Something to consider.
I don't remember why exactly i choose to wire it this way, other than the Ford solenoid on the firewall is great place to tap off a bunch of 8, 10 and 12 ga wires to other stuff like the alternator, main fuse box, relays, etc..
Doug
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 946
Likes: 266
From: McMinnville Oregon
Well persistence pays off. As I said I started by rebuilding the starter/solenoid. Then working back thru the Mopar remote relay to the ignition switch replacing them all. I checked each individual wire for continuity. I had the starter/soleniod checked twice at Napa.
I finally took it back to Napa and told him there was no electrical issue. I told him I though there was some mechanical issue with the starter that wouldn't let it retract when the power was interrupted and the problem didn't show up on his test bench.
Well they sent it up to Portland to some shop. They took the solenoid and moved it back about 1/2" on the starter case and low and behold it WORKS!!!!!!!
Of course now the summer is over in Oregon (the rain has started) and my only convertible has been on my 4 post lift all summer, grrrrrr!!
I finally took it back to Napa and told him there was no electrical issue. I told him I though there was some mechanical issue with the starter that wouldn't let it retract when the power was interrupted and the problem didn't show up on his test bench.
Well they sent it up to Portland to some shop. They took the solenoid and moved it back about 1/2" on the starter case and low and behold it WORKS!!!!!!!
Of course now the summer is over in Oregon (the rain has started) and my only convertible has been on my 4 post lift all summer, grrrrrr!!