IsTuV DOT 5 available in America?

 

If there is clear evidence (independent registered/certified laboratory data) that DOT 5 is not compatible with various rubber compounds used in automotive brake systems, then the manufacture of the silicone fluids cannot label it as in compliance with DOT and Federal Motor Vehicle (FM) Standards. These would be at least SAE J1703 and FMVSS 116. There may be more. The liability of continuing to promote sales of a sub-standard and mis-labeled product would be tremendous. Yet no manufacturer that I know of for DOT 5 has withdrawn his product from the brake fluid market. And the military continues to use it. I have also been told (but not confirmed) that DOT 5 is used by some of the USPS fleet.

Same for the various rubbers used in brake systems. Surely they are quality checked against standards on almost every batch. Maybe on every batch. Surely they would know/realize that there are issues and then seek to address them. I KNOW Parker tests their rubber compounds against standards and for various services and publish this information in their Handbook (Parker O-ring Handbook). They have a separate page that specifically addresses suitability for their EPDM Compound XXXX for use with DOT 5 Brake Fluid. I reported on this previously, as well as specified the exact compound number they referenced.

If LS and CSSB and others knew about incompatibility, I would ask if they wrote and notified DOT and other Federal Agencies about their findings?? In that way, DOT certification for 5.0 as could be withdrawn from some or all manufacturers...........since what is being manufactured is no longer valid or applicable.

If I was still working, I might have been able to get my company (Union Carbide and later DOW) to investigate, since both made silicone fluids used in this industry. But it requires someone with a bit of "pull" or "skin in the game" to pursue it with the various companies and federal agencies. Right now no one has really stepped up. Basically the message is simply "Don't use it or your warranty will be void". No mention about personal safety or anything else...........and apparently no follow-up.

Larry

EDIT: Interesting article about all this: https://www.adlersantiqueautos.com/articles/brake1.html

 

Info from latest Parker O-ring Handbook:

2.2.4 Ethylene Propylene Rubber (EPR, EPDM)

EPR copolymer ethylene propylene and ethylene-pro- pylene-diene rubber (EPDM) terpolymer are particularly useful when sealing phosphate-ester hydraulic fluids and in brake systems that use fluids having a glycol base.

Heat resistance

•Up to 150°C (302°F) (max. 204°C (400°F)) in wa- ter and/or steam).

Cold flexibility

•Down to approximately -57°C (-70°F).

Chemical resistance

•Hot water and steam up to 149°C (300°F) with special compounds up to 260°C (500°F).

• Glycol based brake fluids (Dot 3 & 4) and sili- cone-basaed brake fluids (Dot 5) up to 149°C (300°F).

•Many organic and inorganic acids.
•Cleaning agents, sodium and potassium alkalis. •Phosphate-ester based hydraulic fluids (HFD-R). •Silicone oil and grease.
•Many polar solvents (alcohols, ketones, esters). •Ozone, aging and weather resistant.

Not compatible with:

Mineral oil products (oils, greases and fuels).

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3.9.3 Brake System



Compound: E0667-70 and E1022-70

-40°C to 150°C (-40°F to 302°F)

Synthetic brake fluid (Dot3, Dot4, Dot5) with glycol or glycol-ether base to Department of Transportion and
SAE recommendations

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From Handbook Compatability Tables, Page 7-9

DOT 5 Brake Fluid

Recommended elastometer - E0667-70

Compatability with EPDM (ethylene-propylene di-monomer) is 1 and SBR (styrene-butadiene rubber) is X........... where 1 is satisfactory (best rating given) and X is insufficient data


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry

 

I think brake component manufacturers are arrayed against Dot 5 usage because Dot 5 does tend to find marginal seals at joints requiring a really tight system, Dot 5 does tend to require more patience and experience in bleeding given its want to aerate, and, in some systems or parts combinations pedal feel differs from Dot 3. There is a tad of compressibility in the stuff. These three attributes have likely been abject warranty nightmares for the aftermarket parts manufacturers whose cubical dwelling technical support weenies find it easier to categorically condemn Dot 5 as incompatible. The rest of us understand Dot 5, how to pour it, how to bleed it, and to know that for the rest of our time with the car it is unlikely it will need to be dealt with again.

Dan

 

I worked for Federal-Mogul for 30 years, we owned Wagner Brake and Ferodo Brake companies. We did not have any disclaimer with our hydraulic brakes concerning what brake fluid, we sold New and Rebuilt Calipers, Wheel Clutch and Master Cylinders at least up to 2019 when I last worked there.
The customer was free to run whatever was recommended in the car they were repairing.
We sold Dot 5 Wagner brand fluid to the Military under contracts through several customers in bulk quantity, I don't recall any complaints concerning Dot 5 sales to the Military. I don't recall any changes to the Dot 5 formula over that same 30 years.
If changes came along we had to provde the MSDS sheets to the customers that sold to the military to prove our product met the military specs. The military would not allow a purchase unless the MSDS information was provided for the product. That was standard procedure.
Again, I have not been at that company since 2019 so my information is dated now but it is certainly recent information.

If Dot 5 had any changes I was in the Dark on the subject, as far as I know that product did not change in the last 30 years.

 

Those are all great questions they I would like to know the answers to as well.

 

I have not looked for it but I am sure it is. There are a ton of company that sell brands like Motul and that is all TUV. It would not be an American brand.

 

Then lets get the answers before scaring folks out of their brake fluid, OK? I appreciate that you want to be helpful. A sweeping categorical warning based on hearsay is unhelpful in the hobby. We should traffic in facts.

Dan

 

In a quick search I did not find Motul DOT 5 but many hits on Motul 5.1 that is obviously different. However EBC has DOT 5 readily available in the motorcycle world.

 

This post hits the nail on the head because it comes from an informed source.

 

Dan you are taking what I said and making it sound like I am trying to scare someone. Did the warning label on the new calipers not give you that information. All I am saying is yes I have heard of this, it was a big discussion 8 or so years ago. None of the calipers are under warranty with silicone fluid. The seals had always been the same and then all of a sudden they started swelling a getting soft. It wasn't until they started looking into this that they found out about the fluid. So right now I have about 12 hours of work a day to get done in a 8 or so hour period not counting on what work I carry home. If you would like to research this it would be great for the community at whole. Also try talking to CSSB and Lonestar and anyone else who makes seals, I am sure they will explain what happened. I do know this, my old Dot 5 has no effect on the seals, the new stuff turns them soft overnight. So simple experiment would tell you that the fluid in each is different. I can't find any white papers to show the change, but at the same time I can't find any white paper or anything that shows the ingredients in DOT5 fluid.

 

I have no doubt your intentions are to be helpful. However, this is what you wrote (emphasis mine):

I would not trust the DOT 5 based on that military still uses it. The military, every single piece is mil spec and it is not what you purchase on the shelf. The formula on DOT 5 changed about 8-10 years ago maybe a little less but time flies. There was a reason and I do not recall it off the top of my head but it will make even the black lip seals swell and become soft. If you can find DOT 5 that is TUV and not DOT then you will be good, the European formula did not change. I am interested to see what the testing comes back as if a lab is being done.

You wrote this without evidence or facts and you are employed by a trusted vendor. A few of us know better. But others here might have reacted accordingly. All I'm saying to you, Jay, is that you should have waited for verifiable facts BEFORE writing what you wrote. You need to remember that there are a great many cars out there with recently installed DOT 5.

Dan

 

Here’s a tread on Dot 5 being discussed on the C3 General forum. (https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ake-fluid.html)

 

Has some good information. Tends to support that the elastomers as the issue, versus the DOT 5. But way to early to draw conclusions from the data in this thread.

Someone reported that they cannot get the composition of DOT 5 brake fluid. If you go to the main manufacturers of the fluid, you can then search for the SDS or PDS sheets (Scientific Data Sheet or Product Data Sheet) or the MSDS sheets. That will provide the composition and all its components.........unless trade secret. And then even, that must at least be shown as "Trade Secret". DOT 5 is about 95% silicone fluid based (specific chemical composition shown on MSDS) and 5 % plasticizers and other components to make the final brake fluid. It could be one of the 2 or 3 plasticizers used has been changed..........but in doing so, the company is honor bound (and legally bound) to re-test and re-certify the product for DOT 5 service.

If needed, I can post up a few of these data sheets. I have noticed that most are very very similar, but a few are a bit different in the 5% category.

Larry

 

Here is an MSDS from Clearco for DOT 5. They claim "no changes" over time, and sell to military. Product carries the military spec of MIL PRF46176B.

https://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/...rake-Fluid.pdf

NAPA Brand is similar. Maybe supplied by Clearco. Don't know for sure. https://media.napaonline.com/is/cont...pany/715875pdf

And one from Dow-Corning (major manufacturer) dated 1995: https://hazard.com/msds/f2/cjv/cjvny.html

Larry

 

[ posted the info in your first sentence about eight months ago here.

 

I know................but sometimes you have to be repetitive in this forum. .



Larry

 

Simple Question: How do you know what DOT you have????

 

You (or any typical person) cannot tell DOT 3 from DOT 4 unless it is in the original container. It requires a laboratory to see the differences. DOT 4 is similar to DOT 3, but has a higher boiling temperature. Both are very water soluble, so if you mix with water they will be fully soluble. These fluids are based on ethylene oxide/glycol as a raw material

DOT 5 is silicone based, purple in color initially......although it can fade to a pale yellow with extended use. It is not water soluble, so if you mix the fluid with water, and then leave it settle, it will be one phase and water will be a separate phase. DOT 5 will not lift paint on your car, but it can making repainting difficult unless it is all removed from the surface to be painted. Bodyshops have special pre-paint chemicals that will do this.

Larry

 

Justin and all:

I found this technical paper on my computer, and not certain that I posted it before. Probably did. But I will post again for completeness of this thread/subject. Although it was written/conducted by the military back in 1981, you can see the sensitivity of DOT 5 on both SBR and EPDM brake elastomers. EPDM is essentially not affectedly by any brand DOT 5 tested..........but SBR is affected (significantly affected in some cases) depending on the additive concentrations in the various DOT 5.

Based on this, I will again state that you really want EPDM rubber seals for DOT 5 use if at all possible. Also you want to buy DOT 5 fluid from those manufacturers/suppliers that still sell to the military, and state that they meet the military specs in addition to the DOT and SAE and FMVSS standards for brake fluid. I listed a few in my replies above. You can also search using Google/Bing. In this way, you significantly increase your success.

FWIW. Larry