Well, perhaps I misunderstood. It came across to me that no one on this planet would fake a lowly 300hp automatic and that "The only thing that matters is if the paint is pretty."

I don't believe for a second that "absolutely nobody on the planet is faking 300hp automatics" and putting that out there as a fact to some unaware person just entering the market for a C2 could lead to some disappointment. There are some that would restamp a 300hp nom automatic in a heartbeat to put more money in their pocket. There is no additional work or investment required, no very expensive engine, transmission, or other expensive parts required. For someone to believe that no one would do it because they can only gain a few thousand dollars instead of tens of thousands of dollars is a bit naïve. No different from those that fake documentation or trim tags to try to gain a few extra dollars on their sales.

 

Well, below is a link to one of the best price guides I have ever found. It is independent not associated with any classic car insurance company. You can read about how they derive their pricing. The link brings you to a 1966 Corvette, the subject car of this thread. No mention as to original engine or not just the percentage increase for engines above base engine taken into consideration in the base price of the car as well as options.

As you can see the upgrade for a 350 over the base 300 h.p. IS 5% just as I stated in my post. I am not going to repeat my original post you are debating so just read it again.

All price guides have mistaken info in them and you just have to work around them logically. Hence the name GUIDE as that is just what they are but their price are from actual sales of cars not some dream that an owner has regarding what they THINK their car is worth.


http://www.collectorcarmarket.com/va...tte-value.html

 

It seems like more older guys are looking for automatics. In the forum not to long ago there was a wanted add for a SWC auto. Your right, this car would never be faked.

 

You misunderstand my point. The comparison you have quoted and linked to above is to an ORIGINAL base motor, not to a NOM as you stated previously. That is the main point I was making. The issue of 5% being low is secondary. In that regard I do believe a L79 will bring more than 5% above an original base engine, and clearly will be significantly more than a base motor NOM - like maybe 20%.

Are we clear?

 

Just to be crystal clear - this is your original "logic" that I have been commenting on.

 

And I stand by that comment. And BTW, where do you get the idea that the 5% increase is above an OEM engine? That price guide makes no reference to that. And using this logic as I stated 5% would be what I would deduct if it was a NOM. This is the same kind of logic that today’s regular used car dealers use and our old cars are really nothing more than high priced used cars. 40 past years in the business and the same year flipping muscle, sports, antique and special interest cars have taught me this. Where does your knowledge base come from?

 

Nice discussion, BUT..... did anyone note that the serial number appeared legit, so stamp or no stamp on the Flint stamp seems, well, irrelevant?

 

Is it something with the photo or is the left side VIN tag rivet ........hmm, not typical?

 

Well your quoted source says it’s as compared to an ORIGINAL base motor. Do you understand what the term OEM that you use means?

My knowledge base comes from 50+ years of Corvette specific involvement as well as other
makes.

It’s apparent that you and I have a very different understanding of the word “original” and are not going to agree on this, so I’m done wasting my time on this conversation.

Have a nice day.

 

First I'm not questioning the stamp. Was the car presented for judging with the stamp pad just as it is in the photo?

 

Mike that car has a carburetor right? Don't do It! lol

​​​​​Kidding aside, very suspicious pad, and the tag rivet is scary.

Are you checking out for a buddy?

Rich

 

Elitist eh? Here's a test - If someone were to offer you the keys to a '66 300hp Automatic or a '66 425hp 4speed, all other things being equal, which one would you take? If you say the 425hp does that make you an elitist?

The point is, people fake cars to make money. It takes a lot of effort to fake a car so they will do whatever makes them the most money.

FWIW I recently sold a 300hp/4spd 67 coupe. 100% authentic drivetrain, but with rough paint. NOBODY cared about the numbers matching drivetrain - they couldn't get past the paint. That's why there are so many restored base motors (and chassis) available for sale - people want restored cars to turn into restomods.

 

Yep.

 

Thank you for all of the responses. I looked at the pad for a friend of mine. Pictures only. I told him I thought it was fake, and he should have somebody check the car out. I recommended someone, he spoke with them. He was too cheap to pay for an inspection, but apparently heard what he wanted to hear, so he bought the car anyway. I know he is going to flip it, in my opinion he’s in it at the high end. 56k. He has no knowledge of Corvettes, but I think he’s going to get a lesson soon. Thanks again.

 

Mike;

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but during the 65 model year the factory started out with regular rivets, then sometime during the year they started switching to rosette rivets. During the transition there were numerous examples of cars with one regular rivet and one rosette rivet.

 

Thanks Ed. I didn't know that!!

 

The top restomodders I know (that sell in the $150K-$200K range) don't start out with restored cars...

You make your money in that field by having a low "basis", meaning you get the project or donor or "tired driver" car cheap (that's a variable cost) because the other costs are fixed, labor, paint, sandpaper, rolling aftermarket chassis/engine, etc.

I doubt anybody will pay the freight on my completely restored regional Second Flight base motor split window to restomod it...currently insured at $120K by NCM, no questions asked...

BACK ON TOPIC: Yeah, a midyear novice that is shelling out $56K for a car they haven't had inspected, with somebody of the caliber of Mike Coletta advising against it, in the hopes of making bank by flipping it ?
Hmmm....not something I would be doing.

 

FTF has hit the nail on the head (as usual).

My observations and conversations with restomodders (people who build restomods professionally, and not just their own car) start with cars that need a restoration. I am thinking (anyone jump in here) that the ideal car for a restomodders is a decent body with bad or no paint, a somewhat rough interior, with a rusty chassis and a non matching numbers (or no motor) car. They will pay more for a car with a solid straight (like a no-hit) body, but the paint and interior condition do not matter because these will be changed.

Owner restomod builders (people who own their car, and are now going to restomod it) on the other had, seem to prefer cars with nice bodies and nice paint, nice interiors. These are the people that restored to car to original condition and ran it through the show circuit (top flight, Bloomington Gold) and now want to modify the car so they can enjoy it.

The one part of this that still surprises me is the reluctance to convert 64 coupes into split window cars. I am not talking about changing the VIN from 1964 to 1963, but if you want a split window restomod,, why not start with a much cheaper 1964 coupe. I imagine that the cost of the conversion is much less than the difference in price between a 63 and 64 coupe.

If I was a big fan of split window coupes and I wanted a nice restomod 63, I would start with my 64 coupe. It already has the nice condition and color paint that I would want. My car was originally a 300 hp car with a 4 speed and basically no other options. And the split window to it, paint to match, install a 67 big block hood (which I have), and a custom chassis with an LS drivetrain, etc. You get the idea.

Maybe I misunderstand that side of the market. Please help educate me.

 

This car is very early in the 65 production cycle with 100517 VIN. Wouldn't this be a pre-strike car before they started the VIN rivet change-over???

I am very far from an expert on this topic but I was told they changed rivets for 65 due to new gov regulations. Wasn't there a strike in November? I heard that they started changing over the rivets after that period to meet these new 1965 regulations (and, as said, there was a mix of installs old and new for the next few months) but they had it sorted by March 65 or so. Anybody know more on this???

Not that it matters given all the pad stamp comments....

 

I guess my post has confused things a bit. The rosette rivet change occurred during the 65 model year. Very early 65s had standard pop rivets, during the transition you could see a combination of standard and rosette rivets, late 65s had rosette rivets on both sides of the VIN tag. NCRS has nailed this down more specifically. There is also some survey info in Noland's Volume 2, page 54.

This car is a 66 (194676S100517), not a 65. I believe It should have rosette rivets on both sides of the VIN tag. I have seen 65s with combinations of standard and rosette, I have never seen a 66 or later with combinations. That does not mean it did not happen, but it would make me wonder about the car.