TCracingCA

I want to get to typing more timeline, but I think I will uncloud the mystery of some of the European stuff (Championships first), but not right now (well just added
edits and shared about 1/2 of the story now). Other than the claimed experts mixing up the two Suisse car racing records a little bit, those histories are pretty Straight forward (the Red #223 Gersch Ownership and the Red #50 the car Pro Team had) are the two cars being discussed.

Basically to start this sharing, in 1955 at the LeMans 24 Hour Race, a Mercedes left the track and killed a whole lot of people. There were alot of reactions Internationally and Politically to that accident. The Country of Switzerland banned Automotive track racing, but Hill Climbs and Slalom were left alone, the Government feeling they couldn't entirely take away all Car Hobbies, deeming these two were not as high risk (Hill Climbs?). These were both seriously attended forms of competition, drawing international entrants and top cars too, plus they were kind of like a modern Cars and Coffee, bring the new ride out to show off. There were groups of American Car enthusiasts, who were fielding Mustangs, GTO's, heck Buick Skylark, and a number of Corvettes, all competing against like Matra Djet 996cc engined beasts. The two Corvettes we are talking of in the past, the current Ownerships of these cars have the Ownership mixed up and race records on the Swiss #50 car, vice versa in some races, and then are not generally explaining the competition histories well. I will attempt to do that and then cover the different names of the events, maybe this weekend, but I might choose to not share rare records, as generally these Ownerships and the Experts don't specifically share stuff back with me. We get a generic write up from Corvette Race Registry and that is about it, we don't get sharing of like documents, pictures, etc. etc., so why should I be more generous, than the generosity of doing all of these posts and threads. Let me think on that.

But basically, you had the European Hill Climb Championship ran in Germany, Italy, Switzerland, and certain years Austria, but UK did not hold events there, as they had no real Mountain passes that were suitable. France held some events, but mostly in a Flat stage style of single run competitions.

As motor racing on tracks as I said was banned in Switzerland, the Swiss Club organized events outside the Country for their members and open to others, in other Countries. This could include the WSC events and rounds like at Monza, Hockenheim, Nurburgring, etc. etc.

Just the EHCC (European Hill Climb Championship) drew very top teams. Even like Carrol Shelby entered 3 cars in some races, you had the one- off Factory Ferrari's vs Porsche's competing head to head, etc. (famed specials- Dino variants and Bergspyders and such). Soon to be famous guys like Joest, Mitter, Scarfotti, etc. got their starts in EHCC, etc. In one event the famous Piston Manufacturing guy Mahle died racing his Porsche.

On top of all of this, each Country mentioned, ran it's own National Series, of Hill Climbs, Races, etc. Some of the EHCC events ran, in the various Countries, would be a premiere event for that Nation. Say Germany, they would have the small rounds of their own Championships (like the DARM, DTM), and then the EHCC would run two in Germany events, that were like the Super Bowl, having giant fields of entrants. Also they also would be running their own calendars of in Country (Sports car, Gran Touring, and Touring cars).

Basically Wermelinger owned his 1966 Big Block in 1966/67 seasons (thought to be HD special car/Pre-L88 and might have shipped from Penske with Aluminum heads, even though no evidence of that exists that I am aware of), and the other Swiss guy Rost owned the #50 Suisse Racer (a 1965 believed M22, Big Tanker car, if my memory is correct) running both 1965/66 seasons. They competed in a number of events as a Team. A Team could be formal or kind of informal, where they just parked Corvettes together, helped each other wrench or shared mechanics, sometime under sponsorship, or individual sponsorships.

Lastly just to simplify the Hill Climbs, often you see the race having two names like Cesana-Sestriere which were Cities, so the event ran from one to the other, thru the Mountains essentially, or the names like Gaisberg, that City or area had a mountain and the event was in or on the outskirts of that town, thus one name only (Gaisberg Hill Climb), etc..

For Switzerland the Hill Climbs and Slaloms were the Schweizer Meisterschaft (Swiss Championships). Bergrennen were Hill Climbs and Rundstreckrennen were Circuit racings and slaloms.

PS- just because we have a whole lot of Red cars here (3 of them)- #223 Wermelinger,/Gersch (I normally don't call out current Ownership, the 1966 Big Block HD car, and the #50 Rost Suisse Racer, and then just so it doesn't get into this conversation, the sensationalized, made up Pedro R. famed car, that competed in the US only, and had no association with Penske, but that was a true racer, (just not all they say or Claim), regardless of the former 1960s Owner Whim forgetting the special car he got from CEC, which was his first White car, (the 1966 Sebring #8) he seems to have forgetting the White car, and wrongly has gotting history of what-was-what confused, getting the White car fame related to being the special built car that got crashed, connected up to a second car he acquired because of the crash, that got built up to be the Red Car #14. So there!
Then just to ensure no further confusion, A guy name Veyrat got himself a "Blue" not red, Big Block and it was entered into two big European events (LeMans #14 being one of those, but it was crashed in the previous race, I believe in the maiden event). This car having nothing to do with the three red cars. And then we have Arutunoff White car with Black hood is a whole other car, and actually was competing against Rost and Wermelinger in some events during this time period of 1966 in Europe.

PS #2---- edit edit edit, maybe I won't need to write more later, if I keep editing!!!!! But the European Hill Climb stuff was like a Summer series, as these were Mountain passes, Snow had to melt, and this was not Rally but pavement races, so they were trying to get it all done in the sun shining months.

TCracingCA

The above was a difficult read, as I typed all of that without coffee. So I tried to clean it up. I have a number of pictures of these Corvettes racing. Will see if I can get those loaded, if the uploads will take.

I also found out the thought to be 1966 Bonneville racer run by Washburn Chevrolet was a 1965 car. In consideration of the M22 1965 cars, I thought about adding those to 1966 HD section (but creating a sub 1965 section). I also was working on the C4 Challenge Cars to get something going in that reserved post.

TCracingCA

Actually I don't think we are out of the woods yet on these Swiss Cars, as there actually is a third one that got into the mix, the one found by way of South America. As I am attempting to create a decent quick Rare Car Registry to use as a source, I hope I can unravel these damn cars. So without the hidden collection of ""claimed"" documentation and pictures being shared with us, found by these Owners, it is honestly tricky.

Ok Starting with Vin #194375S115982 (Pro Team find #50 Suisse Racer) had some connection to Wermelinger, therefore thought to be the Big Block, Big Tank, Red Wermelinger racer. when this was first found, Pro Team ads asked for anything about this Car. I have the very first For Sale Suisse Racer ads, so I will plan on pulling those. So this car basically has become the famed rare HD Big Block, Big tank car. This car was Owned by Kurt Rost (Swiss Guy too) and he was named as the entrant in the FIA records (usually entrant is the Owner or Team) but the Ownership has none of that. As they had the Wermelinger name, naturally all events he raced got attached to this car, the Kurt Rost connection lost. Thus my reference to the mixed up Ownerships and drivers.




To compound the confusion, I myself jumped on the third Swiss car Vin #194375S110192 (grabbed the absolutely wrong Vin to start giving details about the #50 Swiss Racer, using the posted Corvette Race Registry shares) which is a ""claimed"" 327/375 FI Suisse Racer found, this being the South American traveled car. This car is the 1 of 6 M22, Big Tank, but Small Block cars that also ran in these European races. I have not found that they have the European racer, who campaigned this car. This is one of those ""claimed"" all options cars. For Sale $2,750,000!

Disclaimer- I have spent zero time to look into this car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually I said three Swiss cars, but I mine as well cover the 4th one quickly.

Anatoly Toly Arutunoff was a Character. His competition career just in the SCCA here in the States is impressive, but he picks up
Vin # 194376S123329 a White/Black interior L72? with M22, claimed to be one of the 15 HD cars. I am still trying to figure out if it is. Did the car race? Yes and he shipped it to Europe, claims to Germany, but it was competing in the vary events that I am considering sharing records on, against Rost and Wermelinger. This was another full option car, the current condition is way over restored, and they show no documents for the auction action on the internet that I have found, but I haven't given up.



OK now for the real special car Vin # 194376s120374
The #223 Red car/Red Leather found with indications of early L88, sold to Wermelinger. Definitely had a special engine.




I will post up some pictures when back at work next week. I don't use my good record lap top online anymore.

Now part of the story-- Kurt Rost (sometimes spelled Rast?) his competition record is impressive. He was driving a Lotus 30 prior to the Corvette. That was while Jimmy Clark was still competing in the Lotus 40 (a Lotus where they added 10 additional mistakes going from the 30 to the 40). This guy had some bank. His Corvette interest and competition started in 1965, earlier than Wermelinger. They did team up, and the two cars show in records #249 and #250 at the 8/28/1966 Hill Climb (Sierre Montana Crans or Swiss Mountain Grand Prix). The hill Climbs were solo drives, but for endurance races, Rost invited Wermelinger to Co-Drive. Thus in Competition, Wermelinger gets connected up. Now I don't get into the Selling and buying end in my research, so not sure who or how sold, when and to who. I just like the Race records and rare cars.

So that is enough for now tonight. We have four very high optioned claimed built cars, all obtained by Guys who developed contacts with the likes of Zora and Penske.

TCracingCA

This will be the type of post that many will love (Sarcasm is a gift), but I spent about 45 minutes trying to become a St. Louis Corvette Factory expert. Basically we have many claims of special cars getting Factory Delivered, assembled, built or whatever. The general replies from those that worked there, is they helped assemble Fred Flintstones first car and impossible. Well what I am seeing is what definitely looks like a separate Pilot line area, with like adjustable jigs, some nice floor space, lifts, and things to hand assemble a car. Some pictures, they looked like side areas to the main production line. Also there definitely is a repair area, where a car with a problem could be sent that way to get worked on, separate from the main line.

OK, my question is, when they weren't doing pilot line cars, then what were they doing there? I do assume the repair area was always busy, but seems like cars could be removed and inserted back into the line at a few non-conveyor belt points.

I am not wanting to restart the 50 plus year debate on the Penske L88, but I wonder if a Corvette like this got built in the Pilot line area, repair area. It was fitted with bolt on wares and reinserted.

The traditional conversations we have had here on Corvette Forum is this thought that the parts were staged for line installation and sometimes special escorted to ensure the right meant parts, got into the right car. I personally think that a car like this was assembled at the Factory, but definitely not in the traditional start to finish production line.

I have tired of the old stuck thought process!!!!!!!! Basically alot of my Thread here is to break that old frozen brain syndrome, that has caused holes in this history, long term!

Heck they were not building Pilot Line cars all year!!!!!! A perfect place to handle a project like this.

I attempted to study the prints shared, I need to work on resolution to better see where the pilot line was, and even get a better understanding of where repair areas were.


Side note: Some might wonder why I am sharing Vins and picturing cars that are well known, or do show on a search. My project here is trying to group all of the same rare models together, instead of as individual record or page for the cars. Take these Export Swiss/German cars, some of the rarest of the rare Corvette options are claimed on just these four cars (things like the Big Tanks, J-56, Development engines, HD engines, Radio delete, M22, etc.,).

TCracingCA

So no ex-Corvette Production line guys?

Last night's little research project, still working on this, to refine, proof, fill in and high probablity of dropping or reclassifying certain cars!!!!!!!!


I Deleted my M22 worksheet to update. I listed like one car twice, and am reclassifying other cars

30 + 27= 57 1965 M22s built
15 1966 M22s production
20 1967 M22s production

TCracingCA

oops duped post while editing. Let me fix!

As you guys can see, I am attempting to crack the Rare car M22 list. One problem with my own data, is I found one breakdown of the 30 M22 for 1965 Corvette being 24/6 as I show. But then another source says 29/1, the 1 being an L-72 car.

Thus I might have the #67 1966 Daytona Racer in the wrong category, as that M22 might have come from the 1 of 30 count, that being the L-72, and that would cause one of the IP/IK cars with M22 to be missing off of my list. But there are a few other cars that might easily move to the list, with some specific research. Thus for 1966, I might have to go back thru the 13 cars listed and see if any of them were L72 delivered. The Gordon Wilson car is the most suspected as being one as delivered and I am looking at one more.

For the Corvette World, I cracked what was happening with IP or IK, but just in case someone wasn't following along, an IK car (w/M22) and special pre-L88 engine would have been built up, cars that had IK we have discussed. And then the IP cars getting an M22, would be a car modified with the Zora Kits, that included a shipped M22.

I found out that Zora essentially split the 57 Muncie supply between Michigan and the St. Louis plant. If you see the way I split the 57 Muncies 30 Production based cars receiving M22, and 27 Non-production, on my non-production list you see the work and allocation of Zora. Pretty much the 27 M22 transmissions stayed, to go in the Development, Prototype cars or were shared to other departments, or he gave one away for a special project. Thus I have 4 non-Corvette cars showing on the list. The only Z16 Chevelle Convertible in existence, a mystical car thought not to exist car that actually has turned up three times, went missing long term twice, and a Drag Racer was able to get a COPO ordered Chevelle 300, as he used to work with Bunkie Knudsen at Pontiac. He was a Pontiac Engineer and was at the right time, right place to get a COPO order done (yes the Pontiac guy, liked the Chevelle).

The next year in 1966, Corvette Production with M22 installed was only at 15 cars, but there were 180 M22 units built. This was the start of the installation into like the Big Models, running like L72, L78, but also the first stocking of what was to become the GM Performance Parts network, which started in 1966 (officially 1968). The first availability to get an M22 over the Counter was in 1966.

I am not getting too much input from others, as I had gotten in past threads. So guys either are burned out, don't like my shares, or are dead!!!!!!! I will go over possible cars that had M22s from my literature, and records,etc., but is possible Zora had a few uninstalled, not allocated out. The M22 was not liked by the general customer who wanted a street car. Some were brought back to the dealerships related to the noise of the M22, lack of creature comfort. Thus the tradition of the radio delete, you couldn't hear the damn thing over the sound of those Rockcrushers, thus radio delete. This is the reason my the other Body style departments steered clear of Production models with M22s. They did recognize that the M22, was Heavy duty, and it was a viable unit, where more strength was needed, they assumed people might use a full body car to tow their motor home trailer, so would need Heavy duty, or might drag race, even though the unit was thought of as a Road Race Transmission. Because M22 was originally thought to be a road racing Transmission, is why Zora ended up as the guy watch ******* these units for the most part, in control. They were not considered a good transmission for Drag Racing initially, but then any one wanting to compete with a 4 speed, it was Chevy's top dog.

If anyone wants to discuss any of the cars I classified, fire away, as it would help proof the data.



I have considered most of the experts to be stuck long term on many of these important milestone cars, I have been mixing up with many of them over the years, but just decided to escalate the research and deduction for prosperity. The number 15 built is a funny numbers, because the initial 1963 Z06 was frozen as 15 units only built, in the 1962 Calendar year. Then in 1963, they got production rolling, and you could order Big Tank or Small Tank from the change order on 12/14/1962. Then 15 cars shows up in the 1966 HD cars with M22 as the production. Thus 15 seems to be the number Zora felt, would be needed to support top outfits, wanting to compete. Also if anyone thinks I am asleep on the shipped CEC special engine order, I am counting who and what car got those. I just wanted to sort M22 cars first.

Ya I may move the L72 1966 Daytona Racer #67 (Cornelius, Boo, Brown) to getting one of the 57 M22s, as that was a very early car appearance at the 1966 Daytona in February (car received in January), too early for 1966 M22 transmisson production order to have started. I do think I do need to re-classify that car and then look for a 1966 car with L72/M22 to insert. I think I know the car (Dave Rex? might be 1 of 13, meaning one of the thought HD engined cars might have been just an L72). Yes confusing as hell.

Tracking Zora and his plans, he was anxious to get racing. An example of cars going out to California (the West Coast) can be seen with the 1967 L88s. We had a skewed number going out here, as our racing with the better weather, the seasons started earlier and ended later. For these cars, I am kind of missing definitive cars out of the San Francisco Region. There were some heavy competitors like Fahey, Stark, Sloma, etc. etc. etc. Many traveled down to the Riverside events, Ontario Events, etc.. We have some San Diego Region guys showing up also, like Evol, and others, so i will find a few more M22 cars in those hotly contested regions. I am a Socal guy mostly, but are using my resources at no cost to the world, to help all of this history.

I also have been going thru the HD/L88 development parts, actually many of those 387, 386, 390 parts still were available for sale thru GM Performance Parts well into the 2000s, as those parts developed were that good. I hope to lay that out, what was changed. When you had an IE or IP engine, and wanted to go racing, what was actually needed, to work with what you already had. The the 1966 Cylinder heads for all where basically the same castings, but they could be built out Street or Super Duty. With Super Duty, the valve were the same, the springs, but the units had upgraded push rods, and special rocker *****, etc. etc. Valve guides for the SD moved up to the 7/16 guides, etc. etc. The oil pump, fuel pumps for SD were heavier duty application parts, etc.. I have started to do this work on what parts built a L78, an HD L78 396, an L72, an HD L72, and will try to tackle the rare and ellusive 1967 itself, L88 (a seriously low production, as they were gearing up for big things, with the C3 and coming L88s), basically as to what parts were used to build the Experimental or Development engines too would be fun to figure out. Many O- Experimental/Development parts went from the O- designation or casting, to getting formally approved for production, and thus a Part Number.

So who got parts for their 1965 or earlier model from Zora, so I will take Dick Guldstrand as an example, who ran his C2 Roadster in the 1963-65 years, he basically attempted the USRRC events in the 1964, 1965 seasons, while chasing AP SCCA Class also over those 3 years. He was a guy that had Zora on his speed dial, and thus would ask Duntov if he had anything new! I remember he said his old race car was fitted with an M22. 1965 year was pre-Penske (prior to Roger hiring him to drive at the 1966 Daytona). He was still with Baher Chevrolet (a dealership that was trying to grow a reputation), Just to the north of them, was the famed Harry Mann operation. Baher would relocate to the Valley (the former Baher Location became Champion Chevrolet). Dick did not want to commute, so he quit Baher formally. He got the drive for Penske, that did not go so well, Roger still was searching for his permanent driver is the polite way of putting it. Dick attempted an Indy car drive, crashed badly, nearly died in May 1966, and then he was hired in at Dana Chevrolet, just as they opened Fall 1966. He left them for the James Garner opportunity, had opened a small shop in Inglewood. Then when the AIR operation went to Lola T-70s cars, Garner had his Office up on Sunset Strip close to his home and rented garage space at Riverside Raceway, for the race team operation). Thus Dick bought the lease for the former Garner space (AIR Team, and former Scarab Team shop location) in Culver City on Jefferson, and started up the formal Guldstrand business. He moved from the South Bay, up to the Valley, commuting to Culver City, and then eventually folded up the that shop, and re-opened at the next location in the Valley.

Since the ability to order an M22 over the counter materialized in 1966, that was after Guldstrand sold his racer to the In Team out of Utah. The reason why I suspect the Leonard car, is built up, is I know that car really really well growing up. When one of my cars was crashed at Riverside Raceway in 1970, my former Owner bought Leonard and ran it, prior to it going to the San Diego enthusiast. I slalom raced against Leonard a number of times when I joined the San Diego Asebring group, but Autocross isn't my discipline (I don't like sitting an entire day in the sun, and doing course work duty).

On the M22 project listing, I am removing the South American car and also the Motion, as Motion got one of the earliest M22 parts support Transmissions batch orders, but used basically every one of them, they could get.

TCracingCA

Just responding to a private question received here, had no time to research the last two days.

Basically how I am getting info on Zora, is reading a whole lot of anything ever mentioning him in print. I have come across a comment on things related to Zora that sounds like a new fact for everyone, I will share, like the Transmission M22 split. I was asked as to the practice of 1965 race cars like the Caplan C2 car getting an M22. I do want to find articles I have on him, but whether that car is production built, I doubt it. So why am I leaning toward that car being production, it had a Vin and got an M22. Thus not a production line build, but the M22 went into a production vehicle. I actually struggled on the 29/1 or 24/6 allocation. I lean more toward the 24/6, as I have heard of M22s in Small Block cars, plus they did denote M22 for L75/L76. The fact that the Peter Fonda Car and the Billes (Gorries Chevrolet cars were built M22, then there had to be more done, plus the Kit program, to upgrade a production sold Corvette to HD race spec., had to be what happened to Caplan's if my memory serves me still. I haven't tried to pull articles yet, do magazine searches yet on 1965 unique M22 potential cars. That would be a big project for a fresh search mission, as I have never focused on 1965 before. Like the 1964 Z06, and ZR1 and ZR2 cars, I have a number of them, but could use help on getting those up.

Thus what they did in 1966, started in the 1965 year. So guys with 396 car, the 396/427 kits became available so a guy could race. Plus people had 396 and wanted more displacement, so people did 396 to 427 conversions.

Now the 1965 30 M22 thing is fairly recent times, on it's going public. Many have said 1965 M22 did not exist for the longest time. I never thought to catalog them, but above you guys see I have took an initial shot at it. A pretty good shot at breaking it down. The Development car list is pretty full on the extra 27 transmissions. I do think like the 58053 car (Claimed Mule) type situation is causing quite a handful of CEC cars to be denoted with M22 (possibly wrongly so). In that book they talk about Zora building a whole fleet of Development cars being built to test. I personally think their thinking is super flawed on all of this. I think Zora was putting Kits out the door, 1965, in a true out the back door factory secret factory support manner, all hush hush. In 1965, Zora had to be especially careful. Bunkie was soon to be out the door, Estes taking over. Thus 1965 might be the most secretive year, and why less records are shared or where exposed. Let me post something I have, that is not part of the Black book yet. I am sure most know the picture I am about to share.

Looking at the validity of the Penske car, modifications to FIA have to happen to put special equipment into those events. I believe pictures of the Harold Whims white car were used to request acceptance for the newer cowl hood, to the Air Cleaner. Penske ordered the car COPO essentially at the same time Zora suggested Dick Guldstrand, is what Guldstrand had told me.

TCracingCA

As I have a real job, I never really finished or edited the last post. We had a Law Firm go upside down (Kimball, Tirey, & St. John) grrrrrr!, suddenly terrible service to us, so had to go grab another firm. Cost me alot time, transferring case load. Ouch! Work often rolls into my personal life time!

A thought I had on Zora, was the Corporate watch dogs probably spied on him more in Michigan. If he shipped anything out, it might get back to the wrong Executives, led to questions being asked. I bet he handled his race car support from St. Louis. Yes we know the Grand Sport story, and he was able to get full cars out the door, but that was a rarity from Michigan. He definitely was hiding his support, camouflaged in the Production run.

Here

Eric Cahill

TC, amazing history. Tons of work writing all these events and facts.

TCracingCA

Update, this type of stuff is hard. The internet sucks on the surface fighting with ads, duplication of the same old stories, but going thru literature way slower. I wish I had a few people I could have search crates of like Vette Vues, etc. This 1965 M22 story, is not too developed. In the 90s, I have the date written somewhere, I want to say 1994 when clues arose related to 1965 M22 cars, some got unto this possibility. Most everyone quotes the Alvin Colvin guy and his Chevrolet Numbers book. So a few cars have been found with what looked like unmolested M22 installations or enough to believe it happened.
I have so many dates for a timeline, it is all scrambled in my brain. A timeline would help greatly in having a reference as to claims fitting potential reality. So we know Zora got a few prototype M22s, built up from M20 units. The field test of the HD engine and M22 for Sebring 1965 is an interesting story. Cars Zora had in Warren or out at the Proving Grounds were development, prototypes type stuff. So Zora sends an HD/M22 combo installed in a car down to Delmo Johnson's Dealership, so those Texas boys could pluck those out, and install in their Grand Sport (The Field Test).A few weeks later on 04/15/1965, Muncie has built 57 M22 units and off we go! My impression of the quick M22 car worksheet I created, was a whole lot of Development cars getting M22s. I don't believe #58053 was initially one of the 57 transmission cars, but will leave it there for now. I think it got the M22 going into the 1966 year development.

I might be wrong on the Mako Shark too, it started as a non-driver, and then was made to run. Ultimately it ended up with a Turbo 400, but I think it had an M22 there for awhile? I will refresh my memory on this.

In research, you can read somethings multiple times, but without organizing all the details, the puzzle fit isn't obvious yet on all of the suspected M22 installs. Yes at this point, I need to type the chronological order of all of the dates.

This is what basically happened. Zora put out some Dealership notifications, spread the word around. Being this was so late in the years production run, not many spotted this newly nearing the model run end option, and jumped at it. Who would have been interested was Racers, as the 1965 season was just kicking off. Thus a lot of randomness in all of this during 1965, I personally think Zora supplied anyone who ordered one during a very short window, but not many realized this was out. Also Zora was offering other limited speed parts, that had gone to production. The first signs of a racer supply was in the infant stage, the idea was born. Zora basically had those trusted Employees, the budget for Development also, was limited, and this all wasn't too public, even internally within his department. Thus his desire to go racing was still a goal, but he had to hide work related to that ambition. He could not be as blatant as with the Grand Sports, but it would be patterned in a smaller scale off of the successful of the 1963 Z06 type program they managed (he had great parts like the big tanks, F-41, new disc brakes, and the new toy Big Block).

To counter the Cobra threat, the Corvette needed more power, so that was being explored. I am working on the progression, but essentially the HD parts lists to modify the 396 for racing was developed. Then with the jump to 427, the kit for the new displacement was added (known now as the 396/427 list we all have), along with a kit of parts list, to convert 396 to 427. Just jumping ahead, these race parts kits for competition builds, would evolve each year, superceded with newer replacement parts in 1967, 1968, and 1969 (into the L88 period), but some parts were solid, and stayed in the supply till the 2000s. The 1969 year, the L88 was reworked to the Open chamber heads, so need to pay attention on those as the heads weren't compatible with the other vintage L88.

Now I am already thinking, that finding 1965 M22 cars will be like searching for needle in a haystack. It did not help, that all of the experts believed 1965 M22 cars did not exist. Many think or thought M22s were only in B-Body Models and Chevelles, which wasn't true yet. Also the M22, I dont think was called the M22 yet, I am checking back on my research for that nexus date (which I have), and the nickname Rock Crusher, prior it was referred to as just the Heavy Duty Transmission, just need to organize the TIMELINE! Basically everyone thinking no 1965 M22s existed, if one was found in a car, it was probably thought to be fake, probably removed in a restoration, etc., thus causing a cold trail on true potential M22 cars.

I am actually wondering how accurate 30 Production was, as a few seemed to get ordered, but that many just aren't out there. The 1966 cars (15) were definitely easier to track down. Still working on that, as it seems like the cars assembled, modified with the Kits were counted. The paperwork on how many M22s shipped, or units built up with one, aren't necessarily Production in the conventional sense, cars rolling down the line. Thus I think the definition of Production for these race level parts (M22, HD, etc.) tended to be unconventional. Remember this was essentially a back door support.

Any small block with M22, is seeming like a totally elusive creature! I am almost to the point of giving up on a Safari to find such, and even leaning back to the 29/1 split of M22 cars, the one being an L72 (Production?). In other words, all Big Blocks, but not giving up yet on L75/L76 M22s. Time is of the essence, so just not going to head down that time consuming search endeavor now, with hopes I will find some of these cars organically. For now, I think the balance went out like to a Guldstrand or Caplan, to the racers mostly!


Talking of these guys, I pulled out some real old Guldstrand stuff given to my Father. He shopped for customers needing advertising, but slightly different, Dick gave him sponsorship packages (networking 1970s style), hoping in his travels, he would cross paths with the notable people he knew, a few that might be interested in sponsoring. Fun stuff to find. Will shoot a few pictures for you guys from that stuff. Earlier in the 1970s he was attempting to get sponsored racing the dated Lola T-70, potentially theT-163, and in 1974 him, his wife *****, and his Vice President Lynn Butler! I remember Lynn as a teenager (In Team Utah race team guy), his new title Promotional Director.




As a young kid, teenager I would be tagging along with Dad, kicking tires while the adults were discussing things like this. I would drift next door to Traco to watch what they or Guldstrands shop was working on!

TCracingCA

I guess the big reply 2k shared post over on Facebook where I shared a whole lot of research, typed alot on the 1963 American Challenge Cup Daytona race and which cars were what, was deleted on 1963-1967 Group? The bottom line is that the Silver 427car being found in the 80s was based heavily on having no split window as found, comparing it to the picture of the Norm Burger Team posing in the Shelby T-shirts next to their cars at Riverside 1964. A Silver car shows in the picture above to the right without the split on the Team's Silver car. Well guess what, the White car next to it also had the split removed experts!!!!!!!!!!!!! PS to all, I have back up info, I have never shared just in case anyone ever challenges my research, any of it!!!!!!. Well guess what, I shared a rear shot also above as the first picture, of where they fitted 1964 glass to the white former 427 car also. The problem is that Silver car in the picture is Vin #809, the car known as the Krause car, it ran Daytona with the 327 in FIA configuration basically, originally ordered by Harry Mann Chevrolet, and an entry for the October 1962 Riverside GT car race, But DNS due to an street accident. I covered this already in the thread. What happened was I was being challenged by the current Owner's super close best friend, tried to use the fact of the missing split window to disprove my research, but the conversation was polite and was on a fun level of exchange/subtle debate. Don't know if he was talking and probing for the fantastic enthusiast, great guy Owner. I have ran across the Owner a number of times at the tracks, pitted my race car near his at Riverside 1987, discussed his STP Formula one car crash at Fontana, no criticisms on the quality of person. Great car guy..

You guys have seen me RIP into these cars,, but I absolutely don't care what the experts think,, or the Owners, as I don't do what I do for Ownerships. I have given free research to some of the most prominent Corvette personalities known, but generally I don't like that end of our hobby, as I just care about the cars, their histories, their race records is my thing. Ps many I have helped with information have sold their claimed loved rare Race Corvettes, opting for a financial killing, that was disappointing to me, helped by my records shared. Well the Silver car in the shot where they are mocking Team Shelby wearing the enemy shirts,, that car was purchased by Mickey Thompson from Frank Milne after Riverside (I have a connection to Milne) and it first raced November 1962 at Pomona by AL Gunther on the Mickey Thompson Team,, just prior to Krause being enticed away from the Shelby Team. Mickey Thompson Enterprises was going to be the chosen team to get the Grand Sports for Sebring, then LeMans 1963, before the wheels came off of that plan. I have a whole lot of records, programs, pictures from the era, etc etc etc. Probably some of the best in the entire Country, if not the best!!!!! As I have amassed my literature, race records collection going back to the late 1960s when I started my hobby as a kid, as well as given stuff by Cunningham himself, when some stuff was happening, before the closure of his Cunningham museum. I have like the CERV Prototype cars documents, Bunkie Knudsen papers,, alot of old Chevrolet original records, etc etc. I at one time thought to become a book Author, but I truly am not a good writer. When guys were dying off, I decided to test the waters and started to share here on the forum around 2013, but the net results wasn't what I expected. I used to research for a few well know magazines under contracts back in the late 80s, 90s and they own what I gave them,, doing that while working as a records custodian for SDAM Museum, in conjunction with Briggs Cunningham and his museum, also Harrahs Museum, and we were part of the Smithsonian family of museums out here on the Left coast, a recognized branch assisting with archiving stuff.

I 100% believe the car in question is the White 427 car, misidentified as the Silver one. My research points toward the true Daytona 427 Silver car originating as a Chevrolet Prototype shipped in December 1962, as per Vince Piggens original documents I have, shipped down with the first running and driving Grand Sport at that Sebring track rental, shown in these pictures. That car had a far higher Vin, and was loaned for this Daytona MKII NASCAR testing effort, whereabouts in the current truly unknown, as I think it returned to Zora and got destroyed, it being a Prototype with the revised Z06 brakes. The first and second batch of Z06 car built, their brakes were a fail but I cover that in this thread, and caused a halt of production, the #3809 car that car!. They resumed 1963 Z06 production, based on the revision brakes with thicker drums, etc. in January 1963. Even the two cars sold to Higuera and Reinhart were delivered without the early brakes with a letter about it, both operations receiving those revised units in early January 1964 (all from Dec 1962 testing at Sebring, when they rented the track). The so called experts mostly have missed the man Norm Burger in the picture, in the car Ownership chains, he bought most all of the Corvettes Mickey Thompson had (him being a super close personal friend), when his Team dissolved after the GM Brass guys (Donner and gang) cracking the whip to stop factory direct involvement in racing. Yes both Bunkie and Piggins had to come to Corporate to have their decisions explained. Bunkie was almost fired.

Funny I found the proof picture, of the White car having the split removed, went to post found the thread gone? I don't like to waste my time typing history to share, to have that all removed. Thus I guess if I want to help to straighten out the mess of records, I here for this story am posting my own thread for all that were following. Much of my research sometimes disproves or proves a cars providence. I do no research or posting,, sharing for profit or fame.. I just don't like my valuable time wasted.

I love the Silver car,, would keep it as is, because it is friggen beautifully painted and preserved,, but guess what,, the records point toward it being the White 427. Enjoy!

Lastly I hope I live forever, yes disability has slowed down my hobby with my real cars, non-disclosure agreement long ago caused me some issues on sharing stuff I did under Contract, I lost track of what was or wasn't covered. I was working on my Estate plan, had thought to donate to like the Corvette Museum, I liked the Torrance, CA library which has been good to me long term, maybe donating my massive book collection there, the 20k plus of Magazines, full collections I suggest my relatives sell all of that. Everytime I have a conflict just trying to share and for free, I have thoughts of burning it all, torching everything, screw posterity. I was posting freely on that Facebook group, posted a few threads to participate, suddenly over 60 posts with that whole thread deleted, my post to share the 1963 #787 White 427 car having no split window post, is under review. So I assume someone didn't like the truth, so they probably reported the Facebook thread, and it is all gone. Therefore back to my home here, where I truly hope the Forum benefits from my sharing free. Definitely promotes viewership. I haven't posted anything of late, but I continue to do my hobby research. Go thru the stuff I have, but I have a real job, and other hobbies and research endeavors like I am assembly the entire 1980s US Navy deployments, War strategies, etc etc for my entire enlistment.

I have joined different ship groups like Battleship New Jersey, Aircraft Carriers Midway, Enterprise, Kitty Hawk, Cruisers AEGIS class, and USS Long Beach to help Veterans know their own service milestones, what was happening then during our mutual Military Service years. Very gratifying to have fellow Veterans get excited by long forgotten stories I have awoken. I have wrote on things, where Security Classifications have lifted. Has kept me jumping, as any fellow Veteran knows everyone that served is an expert.

apahl

Rest assured that your efforts to preserve history are much appreciated. It's great you are doing what you do. I am a volunteer at the National Museum of Industrial History. We have some folks doing cataloging of Bethlehem Steel documents and papers and the job is monumental. This is over a hundred years of material. Many things in the museum are about ALL old industries so you can imagine the volume of material. Keep up the good work!

TCracingCA

I appreciate that, I appreciate the encouragement. That is why I have put up long chains of post showing the thought process doing this research, so people could join or follow along. This time on the Facebook group, I had even Jan Hyde (Corvette Registry) reply on the accuracy of some of my stuff, shared on Facebook, related to the Race event sharing and the history leading up to the car debate. I just about fell off of the sofa seeing that. I am glad that they are taking it in. On Tuesday had that roommate, best man at the wedding I think he said, tell me that based on purchasing the car from Andy Porterfield (a friend of mine, talked cars a number of times when getting J-56 brake pad work done) finding it the now Silver claimed 427 car with no split window, the center section had been hacked out, that was the nexus for making the claim of that former car being the Silver 427 car from Daytona. It just doesn't fit, and he used the picture I posted with the Team in Shelby shirts showing the Silver car no longer having the split windows, as part of the debate. OK I wasn't born yesterday, so now I have shared the Split Window center cut out of the White car too. Fun Stuff. They were battling the Cobras, and anyone that has raced needs as good of rear visibility when they are running events with cars, that can come up and pass you (watch your mirrors), or when you do a pass, make sure you drop back into line safely, and don't take the nose off of your competitor. That split was very disliked, so their were conversion kits back then, to eliminate it, so Norm and race team crew did that two the Silver 327 Krause car and the White former 427 car.

I was pretty confident when I went to pull pictures, the Split window would be missing on the White car. That car being brought in for Gurney to run at Riverside October 1962. It DNS as too late arriving, plus Gurney had a race sponsorship conflict committing to drive a Chevrolet their for a moment. The car was sold by another friend of mine, Don Steves of Don Steves Chevrolet who I have sat with doing research (but mostly for one of my own cars), he sold it to Norm Burger a name previously long forgotten in the chain of 3/5 of the Mickey Thompson Team owned cars by the claimed Owners. This white Z06, It never switched title, was loaned to Mickey for Rex White/Lou Clements to do the MKII 427 drop, with Yunick and Mickey Thompson as the leads. When done they pulled the 427s, and reinstalled the 327 FI engine, and back to Norm it went. Mickey Thompson Team took there cars home, and then the team was dissolved, so Norm Bought what was still unsold, being the Silver Krause car #809, and the third white Z06 that never raced, and Mickey Thompson's personal Transportation Z06 car #6844. I have shared race program entries of both Krause and Doug Hooper (another friend of mine) racing under the Norm Burger Entrant/Entry in 1963/64. Even my other long term friend Dick Guldstrand after his 1963 blue roadster crash, borrowed a Corvette for like the Portland and Kent legs of the Racing series from Norm Burger, to continue in the points battle leading to his Pacific Coast entry and single event for the Championship drives. Mickey calls Norm back up when he needed a car for the Bonneville Sears Department brand Allstate Service Centers, and the launch of their new tire line, so Mickey gets the white car loaned to him. The experts all get ahold of #6844 car, identify it incorrectly as the Bonneville car, livery it in the decals and all, that current Owner lists it for auction, to have them realize that car was not the Bonneville Allstate sponsored Z-06, formerly ran in that publicity stunt. Yes it was a car that originated again from Don Steves Chevrolet, the third of three white Z06s that he brokered, and sold to Mickey Thompson, then sold to Norm Burger. The White car in question starts the 1964 season, the two team cars sans no longer having split windows. Norm eventually sells the Silver car to Krause. The White car is kept by Norm, Doug Hooper used it for a time, doing shop promotion, as he piloted it during 1964, his shop purchase April 1963, Grand Opening my father went to July 1963. Jumping forward, Norm let's an Autocross/slalom guy try the car, who was going to buy it, the deal went south. The car ending up still owned by Norm Burger in the 80s, in the car of Andy Porterfield. I was shopping for my race car 1982, checked out this white car painted orange, I picked another car to buy brokered by Walt Snow, formerly raced by Mathis Brothers. The Orange car was pretty tired, having been used as a Track indoct trainer by Andy Porterfield, stored and kept but painted bright safety Orange, so as not to get hit. Along comes the Ford Cobra enthusiast, and he is talked into buying it. He does a restoration, gets entry to Monterey and guys are crawling over and under it, as it has some Mickey Thompson mods. They read the Vin, determine it is super low Vin #787, and thus is born the story of extra Z06s that do not exist, and that car becomes the Silver car. That is where we are at, until me. I come along, break the bad news on the 1962 Riverside race entry count of Z06s, I break the news on Norm Burger, his Pomona entry in November 1962, where Mickey entered the Dark Blue Riverside winner, and his newly acquired from Harry Mann Silver car, ran by Gunther in that 1962 November race. Mickey on a roll, being the big guy to get the first C2 major victory at Riverside of the new model, is doing interviews to promote Corvette, Chevrolet. He starts a Chevrolet performance product line (Magnesium Diff case, Magnesium engines for your Corvette). In a perfect world Mickey Thompson was doing everything that Chevrolet should have wanted, except the Brass, Executives of GM were fighting Monopoly lawsuits filed by no other than the future President Kennedy. Ralph Nader attacks GMs on safety, goes after the Corvair especially hard. An AMA Manufacturers ban had been in place since 1957. That Policy is readopted, and all Factory Direct Involvement is ordered halted. Wiley Zora Duntov and Bunkie Knudsen attempt to keep the Corvette relevent as a performance model, leading product for enthusiasts and racers, faced by the Shelby Cobra threat. Mickey connects up with his old Pontiac friend Smokey Yunick, Yunick and Junior Johnson talk him into the camouflaging of 427 MK II testing for the NASCAR effort. They phone call Vince Piggins the Manager of Chevrolet Performance products, sure use the car we sent down to Sebring in December for brake testing, it is a prototype, just return it when you guys are done. In the process of getting that car ready for Daytona banking, Rex White and Lou Clements get wind of this, and they want to play. They had been out at the Arizona Proving Grounds killing Chevrolet Engineering Engines, the whole allotment provided in high speed runs, first pitching the traditional 1962 Impala fitted with the new engine, against the class of the field Pontiac. At first the Pontiac was whipping them. They learned the ride height orientation wasn't allowing an equal car vs car (MKII potential) comparison. Thus they continue there testing, but the engines are still proving unreliable, even thought they had reached speeds of 180mph. Back in Smokeyville, the Engineers on this MKII engine project Keinath, and Howell were burning the midnight oil, with their team, and had commissioned Smokey to give the whole thing a look over. Smokey was first invited to Headquarters where he first viewed the new engine laid out on a table disassembled. Thus starts his involvement. He thinks the engine has serious potential, not necessarily liking the 427 displacement, but goes ahead and plans an entry at Daytona 500 1963, sourcing a new upcoming hot shot in the name of Johnny Rutherford. Chevrolet is attempting to get this engine good, Daytona is fast approaching. Rex White decides he is entering, and gets permission to take the Red Proving ground car to Daytona, now freshly painted white. They were attempting to decide whether to run the reliable 409, or like Smokey the MKII, then throw the cards on the table, we are running the new engine. All heads now are turned toward Chevrolet engineering to complete some production. The engines 14 of them are delivered to Smokey's shop on January 14th, with the February Speed month at Daytona about to kick off in two weeks. So how do they get some run time on this engine, hey there are some pre-Daytona 500 events running weeks earlier, will one of these fit into a Corvette?

In the modern enter me, a lowly Corvette enthusiasts, former Researcher for hire, attempting to break into the Magazine article authoring world in the late 80s. I connect up with local car museum, find some high end people with connections, one former Magazine writer from Road & Track. He connects me up with a few people. I am one of two getting the Museum library to a state of being a research place for anyone wanting to go research. I help guys walking in the door with finding literature sources, this is all makes. We have many literature donations, we build that library. We in our attempt to serve mankind, we start connecting with other museums, and my co-patriot connects to Briggs Cunningham, and the Harrahs Las Vegas operation. In the meantime, I like old warbirds, so I am also spending time at the Smithsonian accredited Air & Space Museum next door. I take up volunteer duties at both places, SDAM and them, doing docent work, I write the volunteer corps newletters, I start interviewing notable Celebrities for our Publications. Since the Air & Space guys were Smithsonian sanctioned, why not us car Museum guys, thus we make inroads for that. Briggs Museum in Costa Mesa already connected, he offers his assistance, phone calls, and contacts. He is in possession of like the two CERV Zora Prototype cars. I meet Briggs, being the young guy to drive source materials back and forth, joining our two museums as research centers. Being a Corvette guy, instantly standing in the presence of two of Zora's pet projects on permanent loan from GM (forgotten), just sitting in Costa Mesa California. In this role as just a volunteer, guys authoring car books, magazine article publishers inquiries or visits are happening. I end up on team like research Lamborghini Miura production numbers, work with the Shelby Registry, I catalog Ferrari models and Vins that have raced in North America, etc, etc. etc. I then get laid off from my Government Contractor engineering job, have to stop all free volunteering. I attempt to get some pay by offering research for contract, a thankless job, I continue on for a time, until I started my new job, but the travel requirement for servicing the US Navy was heavy, thus I dropped doing all of that, but continue on with Research stuff, as I enjoy solving research puzzles. Thus you guys are getting some of that hobby here. But I am still tempted to burn it all up, destroy it all, the only thing that stops me is that alot of what I have was given to me as a custodian. I figure I could long term entertain my hobby, impress the Car world with finds, research and bond with others, as I aint too social anymore since my accidents, especially the near fatal. Thus that caused me to look for an activity during my long road back. Something that I took pride in, a sense of accomplishment, leaving the World with better history, than how I found it. That hasn't gone too well in the Corvette World, based on Investors, prideful Owners, etc. As my old research positions put me in the midst of everything from old Bentley experts, to you name it, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lambo, Shelby, heck Abarth, Formula One, Can Am, Trans Am, SCCA, IMSA, Penske, Bondurant, Craig Breedlove, etc.. etc... Corvettes wasn't just my primary, so I did not join the Click, the Secret Society of experts, but I own Corvettes, as those have been within my measly budget, even though the adversity of having a few crotch rocket accidents, the last a near fatal. So here we are. I was so tired of the 1963 Z06 confusion, I decided to tackle it. I have shared Vin lists from my hobby on 1967 L88, L89, 1968/69 Vin L88 lists and 1963 Z06s, etc. Shared racing glory stories about the famed Corvette drivers, celebrities, etc. Time is the killer, a few real weird years with this Covid thing, my real job has never been more complicated and gets more dangerous, not taking vacation, any real vacation since November 2019. As I approach Retirement, trying to eek out a living, and enjoy some hobbies such as this truly solo endeavor, that I never have true time for. While I have the last of my youth, I might change careers, thinking about Code Enforcement, just get a Government gig in my final work years, drop my high risk profession, where I have had to go face to face with really bad people, evicting them from communities for a paycheck. The Government is protecting bad people now with Eviction moratoriums and Rent Control protection from Evictions. I have had homeless just break and enter and take over people's vacant units, and while Covid closed all courts, Police defunded, unwilling to assist to remove Homeless that discovered a vacant unit and climbed into to crash, breaking windows. Police arrive, say if you don't want them here, you should evict them, Private property, see you, good luck. Oh in the meantime, here is a code enforcement violation for the activity that is occurring from the Property, have fun. Thus I escape by doing my slow process research, a healthy activity, while vegging in front of the Television. I still buy magazines, search the internet for interesting racing, car hobby info, which sometimes leads me back to Corvette World.

TCracingCA

Trying to fix my bad writing above with edits. But this Team Norm Burger was not only competing in SCCA (AP/BP classes), but while the initial GT Manufacturers championship was being run in the USRRC, Cobras and Corvettes were being raced in that separate series also. The USRRC was a precursor series to the Can Am. The much faster Sports Prototypes were fielded in these USRRC races with the GT Class. The speed differential for a McLaren M1A, a Lotus 40, a Chaparral 2A, a Cheetah was higher, so these cars were coming around the Corvettes and Cobras, all the more reason for good rear glass visibility. At this time, others like Guldstrand were running a duel series of competition. Thus the records are confusing to most. So when you look at them, you see like an SCCA event at Riverside, but then later in the season the same guys are back at Riverside in a USRRC event. So often you hear that a particular driver won Riverside, then you hear another driver won the Riverside event, you have to see what Racing Series applies. Then like SCCA would do multiple visits to the same tracks during their season. Like Dodger Stadium races were first run in March 1963, and then they returned near the end of the Year for another event. I have been sorting all of that, but just haven't shared much of that yet, my focus on the Corvettes and Cobra battle. Shelby took his Cobras on a true National swing (California to Florida), really not many Corvettes did that. Running Nationals on a National scale. This is also confusing as within Region, you had Regionals and Nationals. The Nationals ran a schedule too that had independent events within a Region, but then sometimes the Regions within the Region were combined events with the Nationals. Then you also had drivers who in a race weekend could enter the same car in both National and Regional. Therefore I could confuse the heck out of the Corvette world, sharing these records.

TCracingCA

I received a couple of friend requests, but I don't accept those, my Family and group feeds keep me active enough to not add feeds from essentially strangers. On here the forum, sometimes I respond to PMs, but generally I don't. I want to force sharing into the public view!

Basically the experts view what I do as entertaining, they rarely share back, or give up their own research, dont hear from them, unless I start poking around their cars. I think except for they'd Cantrell early Vin car, I have the 13 or 15 initial 1963 Z06 cars generally figured out. The initial ones were Big Tank car, till that became just on option. Many guys in their chosen race venues, didn't need longer range big tanks.

I think I will move on to the next batch of Z06 cars, production re-started January 1963.

I also have been working on ZR1 and ZR2 lists, but my research is week on those. They were popping those out, zero fanfare or advertising in comparison to the press on the L88s.

On L88, I am adding the 1967 Puerto Rico car just for the hell of it, as a few experts have mentioned it, taking off the 1st Silver coupe L88, which has to be an L89 (1 of 16). I am having problems on a couple of the Black cars, but as evidenced by this thread, I get little help to Crack this. Even the guys that keep lists, don't share potential cars, probably don't want to risk embarrassing themselves, not realizing that collectively we could all Crack these lists of rare cars.

I don't have too many Vins on Baldwin Motion cars, but I started putting together their cars. When first out with the so called Phase III, the earliest could be a C3 L89 car in engine only. The very first one of these ran an unimpressive slow ET/Mph, but thru tuning, tires etc. it got down to 12.5 quarters, still not super life changing.

I work also on the Corvette Wide Body racers. I have made strides on those, collecting a picture for just about every single one that hit the tracks. One that didn't.

I have the Challenge Cup all cataloged,, just need to one day type all if that..

I therefore will continue to not accept friend requests in private, probably will respond to less emails and less PMs to force conversations onto the forums and into the sunlight. These private conversations general go as follows, oh I will share some info with you, but because I am sharing it, I ask for confidentiality. I have had one too many of that scenario, that I totally am not going to entertain those contacts. Please post and share publically, so we can advance this knowledge before we all die off.

apahl

My take on this is brutally honest as I think all of us should be. Many who have rare ( or pretending to be rare) cars are either blatantly dishonest or so ego-bound they can't see that sharing only makes the Corvette hobby better. Or does it? Many have their own self worth tied up in material possesions that in the end are just old cars. "Protecting" the information is just another way to sell , shall we say, "incorrect" cars When money is in the picture most won't own up to the fact that they aren't the expert. If suddenly there were no market for old cars the truth would be known quickly. Ego and Envy are two poisions that affect many. I wish the so-called experts would put aside their issues and share what they have with you. I chuckle when I see that a "restorer" had the serial # plate and trim tag removed for restoration. To me this is ALWAYS fishy. I think a lot of the experts are really experts at faking things.

TCracingCA

The enthusiast that has that 1963 Daytona 427 car I would say is a good guy. He had a 50/50 chance at the right one, with a lot of these so called experts probably in his ear. The problem is a mistake identity on these, causes a problem with this overall early production of these Z06s. It has messed up which is which!

Yes the hobby is fascinating, like I was watching Mecum and got popcorn out for the only claimed COPO L88. It sold for $175,000, really pathetic for all of the claimed fame. I have the car only on my list, because many of the so called Experts have it on theirs. They claim to have the tank sticker, OK how about a picture? Claimed ordered without J-56 is interesting, a claim of eliminating a mandatory system from the L88 package.

Another interesting lessor known thing that I have mentioned is one of the Norm Burger cars was impelled on a Conrete barrier at the latter Dodger Stadium race, and I know what happened to it related to the damage and disposition after that race day. Doug won on Saturday, crashed it on Sunday.

Also near everyone of these guys that has contacted me, generally always want to see what I have, then rarely share anything back. Thus post it up!!!!!!

international blue

Just to clarify this car is a Mecum regular...for whatever reason.

At Kissimmmee 2009 the car was sold for $305,000
Monterey Mecum 2012 Aug 18 this car sold for $400,000.00

2023 Mecum Kissimmee the car was a no sale at $175,000.00....not sure why... I would buy it at that price.

For clarity, the vin is 194679S721688

Truly Enjoy your posts and the history.

TCracingCA

I like this car too, but do I keep it on the L88 list? But on my registry entry, I have Copo? etc. next to that entry, and haven't finished filling in car data (colors, etc. ). Do I give it credit for being a COPO, to cover for it missing the J-56 brakes? I think $175K is getting far closer to a correct price, than the previous auction highs. Is that because we are finding out more about it, or is the market down that much? Many guys during this period, saw the Parts department engines available over the counter (454s, ZL-1s, L88s, etc.)so why not just get a wreck and rebuild it to what we want to race. A few of these famed cars, it has been shared that they were built up, some from a wreck, some from a base model. I will probably move this car to the non-L88 list, as they don't share paperwork or tank sticker proof, unless I missed something. This kind of car is more in my lane, as I can't meddle in the high end priced end of our Hobby. I like it's race history and livery, bad *** car!!!!!!! I am not sure if the three cars I have, would total $175K either in their present states.

I am working on that big US Navy project, but hope to get some typing in, of more data to the specific registry early posts in this history thread.

That Norm Burger rear window conversion on both of the team cars was worth sharing, as a big factor in my breakdown of these historically important cars. I actually knew one day someone would take the bait, and I would share the white car having the split removed too. The #809 Silver car is owned by what is said to be the leading 1963 Z06 guy in the Country. Well he doesn't know his own car's Dealership origin, I do! He doesn't have his 1963/64 season race history, as taken by the other Silver car in question, I have it. No way the silver car was sent to the FIA, made a West coast appearance at Pomona Nov 1962, then shipped back for Dec 1962 Sebring Track rental for brake and tire testing. That car was fitted with the new improved revision of the 1963 Z06 brake package. I see nothing as to Mickey Thompson getting ahold of those brakes, as even the Nickey, Thompson, Yenko cars didn't get those yet. Neither did the Reinhart or the Higuera cars get those yet, till well after that December 1962 testing on the East coast. So if it was Mickey Thompsons car then, so it stayed out there from December 1962 clear to at least February 17th. That is a helluva storage or motel bill for crew. Doug told me some dates on these, and the timeline I shared on post 153 I think, was partially developed from what I remember about that conversation with magazine article info, input from others, and book information that looks accurate. I have studied alot about the FIA process. On the Westcoast, Cal Club kind of did their own thing. They bucked the SCCA regulations often. This period also was the "Loose Rule Period" for FIA Homologation. Shelby was newly protesting Ferrari, Jaguar, and Aston Martin, etc. The Cobra was more production, than the Ferrari GTO, Lightweight Jags, the DP Astons, etc.. The Grand Sport application was initially submitted, but then retracted, no where near the 100 required, 125 planned.


Just to point out earlier thoughts on like the Doug Hooper Riverside winner. I think everyone is on board with that car being #008, based on the early shipment into Burbank Airport, the testing at Riverside, way prior to the production of the #684 thru #895 cars. It had thick crude Prototype type glass, it was fitted with testing instrumentation, etc. etc. When the survey was done early on, for Z-06 cars, it appears the #689 car was claimed to be the Hooper Riverside Winning car. That made it into the 1963-1967 Nolan Adams/Paddock book. The expert says three Corvettes were brought back to California by Mickey and team, and one returned to the factory. I do have a picture of the Dark Blue car fitted with Radar Rims in front of Mickey's shop, the latest rims that Mickey added after the Daytona event to his Catalogs. I have 1963 catalog, 1965 catalogs. The White car definitely was one brought back, I firmly believe that was Norm Burgers car (acquired from Don Steves, and it remained with continuous Ownership by Norm Burger. Naturally what would become known as the Krause Silver car also brought back. That leaves one silver car missing. Thus some experts swear the Dark Blue car survived, but was lost, they currently claim the white car is missing, I don't think so. And the Krause Car has lost most of it's pedigree do to this 55 year mix up. The experts have this all jacked up, I think I have cracked this puzzle. My stuff fits!

I have never explained why I keep one of the 1962 Nassau Corvettes on the list and no one has ever asked. Nausau and Puerto Rico were FIA sanctioned, unlike the rouge West Coast Cal Club, Region 19 events. Cantrell's car was Red, so not a car thought to have been sent for FIA inspection, as the memory of that was first a White car (Probably the Higuera or Thompson car), then a brake upgraded car that was Silver first appearing at Sebring Dec 1962.

64conv

we own the 9000 car you mentioned with Delmo. It is 9366. It exists in unrestored state. For all the rumors, yes it rolled but sustained only minor damage. Popped out the roof ( can see lines in headliner), Put new windshield in and was racing again in 2 weeks..