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Well I've always been a sports car and road racing nut. Owned lots of sports cars and the one 65 corvette back in the 70's. Always autoxed and tracked them.
Well 20+ years ago I got my 72 Porsche 911. My first rear engine car. Boy learning to drive it quick was an experience. Soo, wanting to make it quicker and couldn't afford to put in a bigger engine I started taking out weight, like my after market muffler weighed 10lbs vs the stock 30lbs. Other tricks were called corner balancing.
Anyway the best I got was 37% front to 63% rear. Soo just for curiosity's sake I weighed my little Classic Mini Cooper, 57% front and 43% rear, not bad really. Well then I had to go weigh the Hemi/Vette. I thought with that big engine it would be terrible, but! It came out to 52% front and 48% rear.
What a surprise!! Never would have thought it would that close to 50/50 and I don't even have a spare tire carrier. I remember my old 65 was really easy to corner fast, just a touch of throttle and you could four wheel drift easy around a corner not so the Porsche and the Mini is a different animal I'm learning.
I guess I'm curious about the old stock C2's and the newer ones with the transmission in the rear and of course the new C8/??
Road racing the C2 and C3 we find we need more weight on the rear to help plant the tires with all the hp we are making. I always go out with 3/4 to a full tank of gas. But these cars are drag cars, not cornering cars like the 911. Momentum in corners is not your friend as they will push and scrub speed. Get the car straight as soon as possible on exit and floor it! Here's some Pcars in my mirror
The thing with the Porsche's is that they really, really stick like glue.....until they don't, and you go for a ride. I find other platforms more forgiving to drive hard, but am not a racer like yourself. I have always wanted a 356 or early 911.
Look at the C2/3 engine placement relative to the front axle as compared to other cars. The engine sits well behind the front axle compared to other cars where the engine mounts are basically in the same plane as the front axle. There is your balance. My ‘64 with a sbc, aluminum heads, and TKO600 is almost perfect with 51% front/49% rear. Some fine tuning with the suspension, tires, and wheel alignment and it is amazing what these cars can do.
Seems I remember the magazine road tests back in the day were generally reporting around 48/52 to 50/50 (F/R) for the C2 generally depending on equipment. Don’t know how real world that was though - gas fill, driver/no driver, etc and my memory may have failed me.
Road racing the C2 and C3 we find we need more weight on the rear to help plant the tires with all the hp we are making. I always go out with 3/4 to a full tank of gas. But these cars are drag cars, not cornering cars like the 911. Momentum in corners is not your friend as they will push and scrub speed. Get the car straight as soon as possible on exit and floor it! Here's some Pcars in my mirror
Seems I remember the magazine road tests back in the day were generally reporting around 48/52 to 50/50 (F/R) for the C2 generally depending on equipment. Don’t know how real world that was though - gas fill, driver/no driver, etc and my memory may have failed me.
I read that, too, and 48/52 F/R was for small blocks. Big block cars were supposed to be 51/49 F/R.
The thing with the Porsche's is that they really, really stick like glue.....until they don't, and you go for a ride. I find other platforms more forgiving to drive hard, but am not a racer like yourself. I have always wanted a 356 or early 911.
You can slide 911s but you need discipline in your right foot; abruptly jump off the throttle at the limit and it will bite you.
Originally Posted by 911Kolsen
Well 20+ years ago I got my 72 Porsche 911. My first rear engine car. Boy learning to drive it quick was an experience. Soo, wanting to make it quicker and couldn't afford to put in a bigger engine I started taking out weight, like my after market muffler weighed 10lbs vs the stock 30lbs. Other tricks were called corner balancing.
Anyway the best I got was 37% front to 63% rear. Soo just for curiosity's sake I weighed my little Classic Mini Cooper, 57% front and 43% rear, not bad really. Well then I had to go weigh the Hemi/Vette. I thought with that big engine it would be terrible, but! It came out to 52% front and 48% rear.
Nice pictures and cars Kolsen and C2 racer. Trailbraking is your friend in the 911, and the rear weight lets you get away with aggressive throttle right after the apex with reduced steering input. My '74 IROC replica vintage racer was at 38% front to 62% rear before I initiated my weight loss campaign this winter.
You do that by removing weight fore and aft of the axles, and move as much to the center of the car as possible, the difference is handling is noticeable., the car simply turns and responds quicker. Perhaps why Miatas are so much fun to drive.
As an example, look at the profile of a 308, the factory bumpers weigh about 50 lbs each (theya re rubber covered cast iron), and the factory exh, located aft of the rear axle centerline, wights about 110 lbs, or some ridiculous number, put 6 pound fiberglass bumpers on ,and an after market 35 lb exh, and 8 pound battery, and not only have you lost a bunch of weight, all that weight was way out at the ends of the car.
Good article. I'm glad they emphasized that light weight is the secret ingredient to enjoying a car's performance, esp. on a track. Once I discovered Miatas they became my favorite daily driver.
BTW I was once running around Laguna Seca in my 67 convertible with a bunch of spec Miatas. I pulled way ahead on every straight and they caught up and snapped at my heels as soon as I braked for every corner.
Like I said I'm more of a corner guy. In the 72 Porsche I removed about 200lbs of weight. Moved the original two batteries from the front corners and then got one strong battery and moved it into the , smugglers box, at the rear of the trunk by your feet. Light weight muffler and aluminum trailing arms. Then and 83 3.0L twin plug engine that gives me a 9:1 power to weight.
The Mini was a normal 1275 engine but now is a 1380 with twin SU carbs. Front wheel drive isn't like I expected it to be and will understeer like crazy. Now I've added a rear swaybar and it has tightened up the steering much better. You can now throw it into corners and it sticks like a go-cart.
Then the Hemi/Vette. It has the heavy duty front springs which I lowered 1" and 1 deg of neg camber. The rear suspension is 4 link to the solid Chrysler rear axle with coil over shocks. I'm thinking of adding a rear swayer next spring as well. The coil overs are very tunable and I have played with the rear height and the dual adjustment on the shocks. The big old Hemi has so much torque you can pull it in just about any gear and the 5spd TREMEC is sweet in the lower gears and a cruiser (2000rpm @ 70mph) on the highway.
Needless to say I've got a lot of memories in these old cars and that glass of wine in the garage in the evening my favorite.
Good article. I'm glad they emphasized that light weight is the secret ingredient to enjoying a car's performance, esp. on a track. Once I discovered Miatas they became my favorite daily driver.
BTW I was once running around Laguna Seca in my 67 convertible with a bunch of spec Miatas. I pulled way ahead on every straight and they caught up and snapped at my heels as soon as I braked for every corner.
Miatas are the embodiment of what's called a "momentum car". They don't accelerate strongly but neither do they need to brake when approaching a turn.
I was doing an open track event at Thunderhill years ago. In front of me was a Miata and right in front of him was a C5 Vette. Going into turn 8, the C5 had to briefly touch his brakes. Not needing to brake and not expecting the C5 to brake, the Miata ran into the back of the C5. As a result of the collision, the Miata rolled, going over at least two complete revolutions.
Good thing the Miatas snapping at your heels, Louie, saw and understood the significance of your brake lights!
Good article. I'm glad they emphasized that light weight is the secret ingredient to enjoying a car's performance, esp. on a track. Once I discovered Miatas they became my favorite daily driver.
BTW I was once running around Laguna Seca in my 67 convertible with a bunch of spec Miatas. I pulled way ahead on every straight and they caught up and snapped at my heels as soon as I braked for every corner.
They were the class overdogs in SCCA autocrossing for many years. I rode with a kid a couple of years ago who had, at most, $4,000 invested in a very old Miata. He was a very good driver and was FTD that day, beating a lot of high-priced hardware.
The BMWs are of the same ilk. Prepped correctly, they run around a course like a slot car. Their suspension, especially the M3 upgrade, will make a 530i sedan handle like a Z06. Those krauts really know what they are doing.
The BMWs are of the same ilk. Prepped correctly, they run around a course like a slot car. Those krauts really know what they are doing.
After going for a ride with me once, a friend bought a clapped-out 3-series Bimmer with 190,000 miles showing. Doing nothing more than building a roll cage and putting on some sticky radials, he started winning his class with whatever road racing club it was that he joined. He did nothing else to it to make it competitive!
I grew up racing momentum cars and it took me years to "unlearn" that technique for Vette racing. But in the end HP still wins if you know how to use it. In open track days some new GT3's can't get around my 69 Vette mainly because they don't know how to drive them. The fastest way to get fast is to improve the driver........
My son has a 99 C5 twin turbo, he had it in Germany and took it to the Nuremberg Ring, he thought he was really flying around the Ring when a car came up from behind and passed him. It was a VW GTI. Driver makes a lot of difference.
My buddy has a beautiful Mazda Miata, a 2001 special edition with less than 50,000 miles. He really wanted a Porsche 356, joined the Porsche club, started going on many of their rally’s while looking for his car, he was driving his Miata at all these events and had no trouble keeping up in the Miata. Then he finds a really nice Porsche Super 90 fully restored and buys it. Gets it back on the road, it had been sitting several years. Starts to attend the same Porsche club Rally events and guess what, he found it does not handle as well as his Miata, is not nearly as comfortable and even his wife does not like spending time in the car. Good news it has gone up in value a lot since the purchase. Now he is looking for a “C2”. Wants Nassau Blue with White interior and wants a turn key with almost zero work needed if anyone has one for sale.
Mark
I grew up racing momentum cars and it took me years to "unlearn" that technique for Vette racing. But in the end HP still wins if you know how to use it. In open track days some new GT3's can't get around my 69 Vette mainly because they don't know how to drive them. The fastest way to get fast is to improve the driver........
Steve
Boy, isn't that the truth! The first time I tracked my C6 (at the old Reno-Fernley track) I was winging along thinking that I was pretty impressive. Until, that is, a Toyota Celica 4-banger slowly but surely reeled me in and passed at will.
Sigh ...
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Car balance
After going for a ride with me once, a friend bought a clapped-out 3-series Bimmer with 190,000 miles showing. Doing nothing more than building a roll cage and putting on some sticky radials, he started winning his class with whatever road racing club it was that he joined. He did nothing else to it to make it competitive!
