Originating Email Address: ezmate@hotmail.com
#Subject=GM Other Comment

-----Original Message-----
From: ezmate@hotmail.com
Sent: 9/23/05 12:10:12 PM
To: info@gm.com
Subject: GM Other Comment


Comments : Are the current horsepower and
torque figures for GM vehicle
engines NET or GROSS figures?

Response>>>


Dear Mr. (Tom454),

Thank you for contacting General Motors and for your interest in our vehicles! The horsepower and torque figures listed for GM vehicle engines are gross figures, rather than net. For more information on GM Powertrain, please visit www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/index.htm.
For more information on our vehicles, please visit www.gmbuypower.com.

If you need additional information or have further questions, please let us know via email or by calling General Motors at 1-800-462-8976, between 8:00 AM-11:00 PM Eastern Time, seven days per week. Again, thank you for contacting General Motors!

Sincerely,

(name, deleted by Tom454)
Customer Relationship Manager
General Motors

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So does this mean my outdated LS5 at 500 FtLbs Gross torque is still -somewhat- competetive?

 

That's what they are saying...

 

That GM guy needs to go down and talk to his engineers before replying... All cars and trucks have been rated according to SAE NET since 1971. Maybe he missed the memo.

GM Crate engines (except the LS-x series) are the only engines listed as SAE Gross. The LS1/2/6 etc crates are SAE NET.

 

Huh? Gross as in bare engine measured at the flywheel w/o accessories, like early 70's??

When did they start doing it that way again? Other mfgs too?



*edit* never mind, I replied the same time as the answer above, which answers my question.

 

...somewhat.
Starting in '72 the changed from GROSS HP to an SAE NET rating. But....starting with the '06 there is a new rating, don't know what it is called. But the Vette Z06 was to be 500 hp but the new rating put it at 505 hp, so not much difference there.

I did email GMPerfParts a couple of years ago asking how the create engines were rated. They responded that the performance crate engines are rated at Gross HP as they do not know the config that will be used and the car that they will be installed in. They did say that the crate replacement engines are unrated as they are replacements for stock engines.

tom...

 

Here ya go...
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=106965

 

Actually that GM response was from a woman.... but I didn't want to rattle her cage.... or anyone else either.

So...

Date Posted 08-22-2005

WASHINGTON — The Society of Automotive Engineers has standardized a horsepower measuring system, requiring several automakers to take a critical look at their more subjective output assertions.

We still don't know the truth?

The person who responded directly from GM is misinformed?

Suggest a different reliable source of information someone?

Anyone?

It doesn't matter what GM's policy has been historically.... they can change that whenever/if the "system" (SAE) permits.

The question is, what is TODAYS set of rules?

They say.... gross.

You guys say GM is wrong about GM's policy?

Okay.... lets all muster our collective resources and get a definitive answer from GM, eh?

That is what I was kinda trying to do.

Alas... I failed.

PS- Let's keep this to INSTALLED engines, please... not crate engines. I build all of my own engines... never buy crate engines.

Interested in the "mass marketing" I hear on TV and the radio.

 

Yep, there's a new rating coming and like you said, the Z06 was the first one to be rated to the new standard. The new standard is actually slightly stricter than SAE NET and most engines will "loose" a few hp.

 

So then...

Which year is gross as the GM representative claims?

None?

They lied to me?

sniff sniff

 

Up until 1970 it was SAE gross. 1971 they were rated both ways although most advertising still used gross numbers. 1972 and up it was all SAE NET.

Don't assume malice for something that can be adequately explained by common imcompetence.

 

You could mess with her and reply with... now is that NET NET or just NET of accessories... wouldn't that be GROSS? How about the air cleaner... on or off (NET or GROSS)...

Think I'll stick with what the Rear Wheel Dyno Says...

 

I think the GM employee was just misinformed on the subject. I also think they should just put them on a chassis dyno when the come off the line and be done with it, it would be much easier

 

I didn't... I was just joking.. that's what the "sniff sniff" was supposed to indicate.... tongue in cheek humor, as they say.

I fired off emails to other "objective" sources and am waiting for a response.


I am aware of the time frame for GROSS/NET crossover in the seventies. I'm not asking about the historical info... I'm asking specifically about 2005/2006 because it seems that everyone is claiming huge horsepower increases these days and NOBODY is indicating Gross/Net in their advertising any more. It just seems like they're playing dirty again. I'll figure it out.

 

I just spent a few minutes at the SAE website and found the following:

SAE J1349 is the standard used for NET power ratings and is what manufacturers are currently using.

SAE J1995 is the Gross standard used for many crate engines.

SAE J2723 is the new "certified power" standard. It is basically J1349 but requires an independent 3rd party witness during testing. They also say they closed some loopholes in J1349 so some engines will rate lower than J1349.

GM has announced they will rate all their vehicles according to "certified power" J2723 and wants the rest of the industry to follow.

 

Ok, this website is really interesting. It lists cars that have a changed power rating due to SAE J2723. Note how the Japanese cars all tend to be rated significantly (3-10%) lower under the new standard while domestic vehicles are rated the same or even a hair higher! I always thought the Japanese manufacturers where less than honest with their power ratings and this definetely supports that suspicion.

http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...item_id=396489

 

Even spinning it to almost 8,000 rpm, it only makes 201 hp. Type-S, indeed. "s" for "Sad".

 

IMO, what would be most informative would be a dual rating:

Gross (no accessories) would tell what the engine is actually putting out. These figures would be used to compare engines.

Chassis dyno - would tell what the car puts to the pavement. These figures would be to compare entire automobiles.

Comparing the figures for each car would tell the truth about drive train efficiencies and accessory burdens...