Many of you know the background http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1407740

I have all parties relevant parties on notice and I am working on getting my remedy. Here is the issue - there has ben a schizm in the c3 forum based on what others would do in my shoes.

Many assert that the body looks great and that I should simply drop everything on a good frame, whereas the others state I should start with another car altogether. Now that ebay is getting involved and (unbelievably, the seller contacted me tonight) I really need all the information so that I can work out the game plan.

Many state that I should keep the car (whether stuck with it or not) and get it right with her downstairs. The defense seems to be that (armed with the knowledge of the brothers & sisters[?] of the C3 forum), a frame replacement is not that terrible of an undertaking and regardless, it is worthwhile given the condition of the car. Moreover, there is little liklihood of getting a much better deal on a sub $20k car in terms of condition, so I might as well jump in while everything's at my fingertips.

Others have pointed out other issues, such as the windshield frame and the bird cage stating that the frame being that ugly is going to mean that the cage/posts will probably be that ugly. Now I don't know if this means extra money involved to correct/repair those areas, or if this means the car is inoperable unless/until I get a complete birdcage, etc. I don't know if the cage, etc can (as is) mount safely, or go a few years as a driver without problem, then be replaced without incident or what (but I am hoping you can speculate the various possibilities and get back with me on this).

Based on the information/scenarios below, is this car worth keeping?

Please don't throw out one-liners, like, "keep/screw it". I really need to know why I should keep/screw it. Of course these posts:



are fine, because I see you are agreeing with "poster-X's" reasoning, and (hopefully not just his thumbs up/thumbs down)

So here is the info that may help you assist me with the decision:

I bought the car with a little extra $ that would cover 1-2 "oh ****s". Other than that, I do not have the money to do a frame-up on her (today). Based on the way the car was sold, I thought I had a solid foundation from which I would build upon over the years, bringing the car back to correct and restored status, once the money started coming in (suspect 2-3 years).

If I was somehow without remedy (which I am confident is not the case given the facts) I would possibly have the money to buy a frame and find some shade tree mechanic who would be able to do it for what I could afford. I would be assed-out after this (based on a few thousand for the frame, and $$$ going to the mechanic) and would have to pray that NOTHING else goes wrong (which we all know isn't likely). I would probably sell the car at the loss given this situation (unless you guys knew some shortcuts to keep/fix her), but I suspect that this situation where I absorb 100% of this is extremely unlikely.

The more likely case is that I would be offered a settlement from the seller and/or ebay. Supposing for a moment that I was offered enough on a low-ball estimate to knock out the frame replacement issue, the question then is, "is this option seriously worth pursuing?" Now that the frame cost is knocked out, (fingers crossed) I do have some money to work an "oh ****" or two, assuming that I NEED ONLY deal with the frame today, Not that I NEED a replacement birdcage, replacement windshield frame, and labor costs. Or, if I need to address the birdcage/windshield, it won't cost much for temporary permenant repaies. So, if I can get a settlement that would address the frame issue and perhaps electrical too, is this a solid, workable vehicle that will hold up for a few years before I can have her taken apart and go for Round 2 of structure work? (Assume for this case the cage and windshield are in bad shape).

Or, would you think the refund and nothing else is the best/only situation given the shape of the car? This would probably assume that if given a partial settlement/judgment you would pocket the money and sell the car at a discount rather than even try keeping/fixing it.

Understanding I don't have the mechanical knowledge or most tools to do anything substantial, and I may/may not know a few who might be able to help. What do you think?

P.S. Feel free to post "If I were in your shoes I would do X, but in my shoes I would do Y, and that is because...". These are very helpful because it gives me the universal position as opposed to my circumstantial position, and I can adjust between what you feel objectively about the situation and what you presume about my circumstances. Also, any authoritative ballpark estimates thrown out on what you speculate frame costs (replacement frame cost, rollaway chassis cost, and reasonable labor cost), and Birdcage/windshield replacement repair costs (plus labor) might be are certainly welcome. I am getting estimates, but it's slow-going. If you need more info to make a better decision, I will do what I can to look on the car and post.

TIA!

 

If you can get all/most of your money back, take it!

Without being able to do the work yourself, you are going to pay through the nose (butt?) to have the work done. Everyone is throwing out numbers like $1k~$2k for a frame, but no-one has mentioned the $3k+ to have someone swap it. You still aren't sure of the birdcage...that's another bucket of $$$'s.

 

Based on this quote, and the fact that you haven't determined the extent of probable rust in the birdcage and windshield frame, I vote you get your money back. I am doing a complete frame-off/frame replacement on a '69 coupe and I know how much it's costing me just for parts. If I had to pay labor too forget it. Buy one that's already done if you can't do the work yourself.

 

Frame swap only, reputable resto shop 6000-10000 dollars ASSUMING no hidden issues (birdcage/windsheild frame) Say goodbye to your car for 3-6 months cause the shop WON'T work on it day-and-night.

Frame + birdcage rockers + WS frame etc 12000-20000 you'll get the car back next summer if you're lucky.

If you don't have the time, space, and ability to do the work yourself (fulltime law student I doubt you have the time, you already said you don't have the skillz...) you better be looking for a refund of selling price.

sorry man...

 

If it were me....I'd try to get all my money back and move on. *IF* there are birdcage issues you are talking HUGE!!! That is a complete strip the fiberglass from the cage undertaking...paint etc etc.

Also, a frame replacement is not going to end up being a 1 for 1 swap. You are going to find rusted body mount bolts that have to be cut off, rusted bumper mounting bolts. There is no telling what the understructure (metal) looks like under doorjambs.

If you buy a bare frame, you have to include all the stuff it will take to do it right. Rebuilding front suspension with ball joints and bushings and bearings. You will likely find all the fuel and brake lines are just as rusted, the fuel tank will be questionable, you will need a body mount kit, steering components, then you will likely want to rebuild the trailing arms and a good chance is they are just as rusted. So look for new ones. At best all that stuff will need to be sandblasted/stripped and painted/powdercoated to make it look nice. Then there will likely be a radiator support that is also rusted out...and you will for sure find other stuff...motor mounts, trans mounts, exhaust hangers and probably pipes, u-joints, maybe even brake calipers etc etc etc etc.

The point is that if you are going to go to all the trouble to change a frame, you will want to restore it properly. If you can't afford to do it that way right now, I'd keep looking for another car you can honestly drive. A buddy here just bought a real nice '70 350/350 car and we just completed a drive from Houston to Bowling Green and back and it never had a whimper...no trouble at all. They are out there for a decent price.

Look locally...stay off E-bay. It's not the place to buy Vette's unseen! Don't buy any Vette you haven't crawled under!

JIM

 

Go for the money back settlement...you have expressed your expectations and that did not happen...why get tangled up in a big can of worms...?? And that will happen when you lift that body...
Best to you on this...
Rich

 

If you're having to hire someone to swap out the frame then I would think the best option would be for you to do one of two things. Option 1 - ask for a full refund and start all over again. Option 2 - ask for a partial refund ($3k or so) and sell the car disclosing the problems. You put the $3k with the sale price and hopefully you'll meet what you shelled out in its entirety. I know there are buyers out there that would easily pay $9k or $10k for that car knowing that they could swap out a new frame for $2k or so if they do it themselves.

These cars are not for people that hire out the work. It simply costs too much if you're taking it to the shop every time it needs attention and trust me they're like a nympho wife....they constantly need to be tinkered with.

 

My Vette is a 68 from Michigan, so you can imagine the rust issues
The car was given to me disassembled by my dad, who had already had the frame repaired, but when I got the car home and dove into it, found that although the birdcage was fine, every steel part that bolted onto the body under the car had to be removed(rivets cut off) and replaced, as well as the rocker channels, lower control arms, and lots of other stuff. Everything is done now, but had I known what I was getting myself into(this was long before I knew about The Forum), there is no way I would have tackled this project

Definitely try to get your $$$ back!

If you find yourself stuck with the car and you decide to do the work yourself, there's lots of us here that can answer any possible ? you might have

 

This says it all. If you can't do the work, the labor costs will kill you on having the frame replaced. As a student, you don't have the income to afford it.

Some have quoted $6000 - $10,000 on replacing the frame. Based on that, you are candidate for a full restoration at $25,000 roughly.

Both sound out of your budget for now.

If I were in your shoes with your resources/skills/contacts/etc., I would try to sell the car back, accept the losses as a learning experinece, and move on, if the losses can be minimized. If not, then I'd keep the car, get any settlement I could get, and buy a good frame.

Then if I could round up enough buddies to do the work, swap the frame out. Local high school auto shop may be enticed to such a project. It is a LOT more fun working on a Corvette in shop than a donated Camry or minivan.

If not, then sell it on eBay as a project. You have the frame, you have the car, it looks good, so there will be buyers lined up for an "easy project".

oh yeah, nondisclosure comes in here. Remember to put in the auction "whatever you think this easy project will cost you, double that and figure that is the 10% downpayment. Then come up with that much each year for the next 10 years."

Just do a search on eBay for Corvette and project and see how many are out there and selling. It will go and you may not lose too much overall.

The later is probably your best bet if they don't buy the car back.

 

I'm doing it all myself, and do not agree that you can swap frames for $2K. In the condition your car is in you will need to replace many parts as mentioned above by 427hotrod. The frame alone will cost close to $2K to get it to the stage where you want to start bolting parts onto it.

Here's my list for your frame swap (I'm sure there would be more that I've missed):

• Frame (checked, blasted, coated)
• motor mounts
• trans mounts
• front end rebuild kit
• body mount kit
• probably new #1 and #4 body mounts (both sides)
• rear end bushing
• rebuilt trailing arms
• u joints for drive and half shafts (total of 6)
• brake lines and blocks
• fuel lines, fuel return lines, fuel vapor recovery lines
• flex brake lines (front and rear)
• rebuilt calipers (4)
• brake pads
• likely new rotors (4)
• front wheel bearings
• new shocks (front and rear)
• Rear spring (old one likely needs replacing)
• hopefully your struts and HW can be salvaged, but I replaced mine
• paint
• primer
• sandblasting services
• countless bolts (grade 8 and grade 5 ) that need replacing
• radiator core support (if your frame is bad you'll need this too)
• Misc brackets, etc that you'll have to cut off and can't be salvaged
• The list goes on - get your money back

 

Get your money back! I think you would be much happier spending good money on a nice Corvette instead of throwing money at this one and maybe losing interest or ambition in the middle of the project.

 

[QUOTE=chevy69]I'm doing it all myself, and do not agree that you can swap frames for $2K.

Yes, Chevy69 is right. The "while you're at it" jobs will make it a $6k job.....or more. The good news is that once you're done, you've really increased the value of your car.

 

 

There is only one question here and only you can answer it: Is this the Corvette for you?

If you don't already have a basic gut feeling about this car being the one, pass on it. Get your money back and find something better.

 

This is clearly a vette for someone with the skill, time, and determination
to fix it. I also urge you to seek a refund. If only a partial refund,
I also think you could sell her for 10k or maybe a little more - as is,
depending on the birdcage condition.

Have you removed the kick panels to inspect the #2 mounts yet ?
That'll take you 5 minutes and shed much more light on the birdcage condition.

Good luck

 

I haven't read all the posts, so sorry if I duplicate. I would highly recommend getting your money back if at all possible. There are several reasons for this. The first an foremost reason is that you weren't out shopping for a rust bucket with a nice body that needs a **** load of work. You were expecting a descent driver or better based on the information in the auction.
Now for my similar personal story. June 2005, I won an auction for my '68 convertible. I knew the car needed work, but I assured myself that I could and would overcome. Now several months into the restoration (a driver quality restoration!), I ask myself every f***ing day why the hell I ever even started this mess. I could have easlily spent a little extra dough to get a descent driver. Sure I've got the facility and the ability to do a descent resto, but Jesus man I'm ready to drive that thing!!!!!!!!!! I've already missed the Power Tour and that hurt yesterday walking around looking at all those cars and knowing that I missed out on my only chance in a long time. Honestly, every day it's another problem that has to be addressed. The point is that when you start taking stuff apart, you never know what kind of problems you are going to uncover that will cost you more time and more money. Dude - it's easy to get caught up in the "you can do this or that" thing, but do yourself a favor and jump ship unless you plan on getting involved with a loooooooooooooooong expensive project.
Just my .02.

 

As much as I don't want to say it, "If I were in your shoes..." I would try to recoupe ALL $$ spent...even shipping costs as this is fully the sellers fault. As you stated in the foreground, said buyer does not have the mechanical skills to undertake said restoration therefore likewise putting said restoration in the hands of said Shady Tree mechanic. I call to the stand Witness #1 of ebay: Where were you the night that said 1968 corvette was sold to said buyer? why did you intently lie about said rust issues and why do you have only one said arm? Judge this is a simple open-n-close case of misrepresentation by a dirty liar (Witness #1) who can't scratch his said head and rub his said tummy at the same time. I bring into this court Evidence exib #3, said coorespondence between said seller and said buyer proving beyond a resaonable doubt that this is a misrepresentation in the sale of said 1968 corvette and would like to enact the Lemon Law...hold the aide, not thirsty!
Ok, I'm done, its early and I was up late last night working on my damn 68 vert securing that I have no rust in the future...POR 15 does not come off your skin...ever!
You sure your not a character on Boston Legal?
"If it were me" and if I had the time and $ I would get the buyer to drastically lower the selling price to maybe 6k as the car is inoperable. Maybe even lower b/c I doubt he could get that in parts. I'm assuming most mechancial on the car is still original if the frame hasn't been fixed. Driver probably tried to patch the car to keep it running all these years...no correct fixes. You don't have the time to do this, I work on my 68 every damn night for 6 hours and its been 6 months and I'm doing everything short of pulling the body. Your expenses are going to be very high for parts ie. frame, birdcage and such PLUS LABOR! You cannot drive a coupe with a bad birdcage as that is an important structural reinforcement (T-bar) that supports the front body to the back. So moral of this...get your money back unless seller is willing to pay for frame, birdcage or a rolling chasis and much of the labor...highly unlikes. ALSO if your goal is to have a "correct" car then swaping the frame and all might ruine your chances depending how "correct" you want it. I believe the block is already a non numbers matching. I hate to say it but get the $$ back and find another car. The chrome bumbers are very expensive, one with minor repairs will still cost you close to 30k so maybe a rubber bumper will be a better "first vette" and a whole lot cheaper. On your next sale, post on here and maybe one of us can go do an inspection of your possible sale if we live in the area otherwise I suggest you take a weekend trip to go inspect urself.
Its so pretty on the outside, I hope you get your $$ back, find another more reasonable car and then someone with time and $ get this car and turns her around. She deserves better attention then rotting away.
Good luck, wish you the best. Denny Craineeeeeee!

 

There you have it.......I believe the consesus is, get back the most you can for the vette, and run!! These are wise and experienced folks tellin' you this, so I would listen to their advice! Good Luck!

 

I feel for your situation. I could have easily been in your shoes if I didn't take my wife with me when I was shopping for mine.

If I were you, I'd take my lumps and get whatever I can for it and move on. I may be wrong but I'm not convinced that you'll be able to get enough of your $ back from the seller/eBay without incurring some costs so you might do better if you sold it. So I guess what I'd want to know first is, what the car is worth to someone with the skills and and/or resources to restore it. (Likely more than you'll net from going after the seller).

Just my opinion, I wish you well!

 

Get your money back and start the process all over again. If you already know that you don't have the money to do this project correctly or in a time frame with which you can be happy, this will bite you in the butt big time. Starting a project tilting to the upside/down is a really no win situation and you might have to bail out of financial necessity and lose even more money.