Survivor vs. Bowtie
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 157
From: Miami, FL
Survivor vs. Bowtie
I'm not sure this applies to me yet as I am still discovering the status of most of my car. But comparing the NCRS Bowtie vs. the Bloomington Survivor awards, it seems to me Bloomington Survivor has lower standards. They require 3 of 4 categories to pass 50% originality while NCRS requires all 4 categories to pass 80-85% . I've seen many recommendations here to go through NCRS rather than Bloomington, but my car would never pass NCRS. It may be possible to get through Bloomington if I replace a few parts with old stock.
Comments?
Greg
Comments?
Greg
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
For the NCRS award, you can earn an individual 'star' in each of the four categories. Only if the car earns all four stars will it get a Bowtie award. If you bring your car back to a future meet after earning the four stars, you can qualify for a fifth hence the term 'Five star Bowtie'.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 157
From: Miami, FL
Well, that's actually cheating. 'Building' a Survivor or Bowtie car defeats the purpose of the award.
For the NCRS award, you can earn an individual 'star' in each of the four categories. Only if the car earns all four stars will it get a Bowtie award. If you bring your car back to a future meet after earning the four stars, you can qualify for a fifth hence the term 'Five star Bowtie'.
For the NCRS award, you can earn an individual 'star' in each of the four categories. Only if the car earns all four stars will it get a Bowtie award. If you bring your car back to a future meet after earning the four stars, you can qualify for a fifth hence the term 'Five star Bowtie'.
Thanks, Mike.
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,988
Likes: 6,212
From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
That seems a little harsh. Let's say I replaced recent radial tires with period correct F70-15s. Is that cheating? How about a cracked windshield being replaced with a correctly date coded unit from a donor? Or a carburetor? Seems to me the purpose of the award as described by the organizations is to preserve the original finish as it would have come from the factory so it will be a good reference to others doing restorations. I don't mean to create an argument, was really not expecting controversy on this one. But I'm now very interested in more opinions on this.
Thanks, Mike.
Thanks, Mike.
"Cheating" might be harsh, but the point is, NCRS and Bloomington Gold already have places for you to compete with a car you restored. The unrestored nature of a Survivor is supposed to offer the ultimate in reference value, an unrestored as-original car, not a restored car.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 19
From: Oswego New York
Well, if you "replaced" tires with period correct items and "replaced" a windshield or carb with correctly coded other parts, that would fall under the category of "restoration" as opposed to it being an unrestored car, which is the entire purpose for the Survivor concept.
"Cheating" might be harsh, but the point is, NCRS and Bloomington Gold already have places for you to compete with a car you restored. The unrestored nature of a Survivor is supposed to offer the ultimate in reference value, an unrestored as-original car, not a restored car.
"Cheating" might be harsh, but the point is, NCRS and Bloomington Gold already have places for you to compete with a car you restored. The unrestored nature of a Survivor is supposed to offer the ultimate in reference value, an unrestored as-original car, not a restored car.
Just my .02c worth.
Pro
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 574
Likes: 32
From: Clarkston MI
C3 of Year Finalist (stock) 2019
2018 C3 of Year Finalist
Replace whatever you want as long as you retain atleast 50% orginality in 3 of the 4 categories. If the judges agree that you score atleast 50% in 3 the 4 categories, you get a Survivor award. They can usually tell if something's been replaced or not. I went though Survivor judging in 2002 and 2003 with a '71 LS5. Took about 45 mins each time.
NCRS Bowtie judging is much more in depth and takes quite a bit longer including putting your car up on a lift to judge the chassis.
NCRS Bowtie judging is much more in depth and takes quite a bit longer including putting your car up on a lift to judge the chassis.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
That seems a little harsh. Let's say I replaced recent radial tires with period correct F70-15s. Is that cheating? How about a cracked windshield being replaced with a correctly date coded unit from a donor? Or a carburetor? Seems to me the purpose of the award as described by the organizations is to preserve the original finish as it would have come from the factory so it will be a good reference to others doing restorations. I don't mean to create an argument, was really not expecting controversy on this one. But I'm now very interested in more opinions on this.
Thanks, Mike.
Thanks, Mike.
One of the things we look for while judging this class is evidence of wrench marks on nuts and bolts as a sign that somebody has been working the car. Fresh looking windshield sealant is a dead give away and would cause suspicion about the entire car.
There is a provision during judging to declare up front what is not original to the car. To avoid any problems you might want to ensure that this is complete.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 19
From: Oswego New York
If your express intent is to pass a 'restored' car off as being original, then yes, that's an attempt to cheat. 'Preserve' is different than 'replace' or 'restore' as others have said. Even if you did get away with fooling the judges what have you gained for yourself or how have you benefitted others? Bowtie judging is intended to honour preserved cars only.
One of the things we look for while judging this class is evidence of wrench marks on nuts and bolts as a sign that somebody has been working the car. Fresh looking windshield sealant is a dead give away and would cause suspicion about the entire car.
There is a provision during judging to declare up front what is not original to the car. To avoid any problems you might want to ensure that this is complete.
One of the things we look for while judging this class is evidence of wrench marks on nuts and bolts as a sign that somebody has been working the car. Fresh looking windshield sealant is a dead give away and would cause suspicion about the entire car.
There is a provision during judging to declare up front what is not original to the car. To avoid any problems you might want to ensure that this is complete.
I have a one-owner 70. Plenty of parts have been replaced ... but Ive saved most of the old parts ... radiator, carb, fan clutch, water pump, etc., but I didn't save the broken windshield, old tires, etc. If I have the original parts rebuilt and reinstalled, do I have something to declare?
Just wondering!!
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Expensive Corvettes Ever Sold on Bring A Trailer
Brett Foote
10 Things Every Corvette Owner Needs (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
8 Most "Only Corvette Owners Understand" Quirks and Problems
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Reasons the C6 Z06 is Still A Performance Benchmark After 20 Years
Joe Kucinski
How Much Horsepower Every Corvette Engine "LOST" in 1972
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 DOs and DON'Ts for Protecting Your Convertible Top!
Michael S. Palmer
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
If you were to remove a windshield, then put it back, the details of what a factory installation looked like are lost.
It's FAR more than just getting the numbers right.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 19
From: Oswego New York
I hope you have not misconstrued my intentions here ... I would never try to put a fast one past anyone ... and I doubt if my vehicle will ever be judged ... at least not while I own it.
I established a 'code of ethics' at a young age and intend to continue maintaining it ... weather it be in this environment or on the golf course.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 204
From: Lincoln CA
Can you say ****? How can you enjoy a car that you are afraid to drive? The whole concept of a trailer queen is completely foreign to me. The idea that someone would actually "save" the original, failed, water pump to have it rebuilt later is sort of disquieting. A healthy, well maintained driver is, in my opinion, the ideal car. Let others worry about the provenance of the brake pads or the number of scratches on the air dam.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 19
From: Oswego New York
As far as saving my water pump ... I thought it could be repaired since the only problem with it was a small hole in the back cover plate. When I had it replaced in 1973, the Chevy repairman told me the pump needed to be replaced, so it was replaced. He left the pump in the car, And it got stored away. Many years later, I found it and determined what was really wrong with it ... and for the other parts that I saved ... guess I'm a packrat.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,892
Likes: 42
Can you say ****? How can you enjoy a car that you are afraid to drive? The whole concept of a trailer queen is completely foreign to me. The idea that someone would actually "save" the original, failed, water pump to have it rebuilt later is sort of disquieting. A healthy, well maintained driver is, in my opinion, the ideal car. Let others worry about the provenance of the brake pads or the number of scratches on the air dam.
Ignore the posts if you don't like it.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,930
Likes: 15
From: Calgary Alberta
I'm not an original vette fan, but I have a quick question. Would this mean that you'd have to reuse 30 year old brake pads????? If so, that's insane...I can't ever imagine driving a vette with worn brake pads, that's crazy.
Like I said, everyone has their own views of NCRS and "original vettes". I have nothing against any of you guys, so don't take it the wrong way.
Like I said, everyone has their own views of NCRS and "original vettes". I have nothing against any of you guys, so don't take it the wrong way.
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 53,988
Likes: 6,212
From: About 1100 miles from where I call home.
aside from tire air, gasoline, and engine oil, there are many other non-restoration items that an owner would need to replace in order to keep it legal and safe on the road. He/she would not be able to drive a vehicle or it may not pass inspection if light bulbs were not replaced when they burned out. How about an exhaust system, belts, filters, lubrications, fuses, tires & valve stems ... the list could go on and on.
Can you say ****? How can you enjoy a car that you are afraid to drive? The whole concept of a trailer queen is completely foreign to me. The idea that someone would actually "save" the original, failed, water pump to have it rebuilt later is sort of disquieting. A healthy, well maintained driver is, in my opinion, the ideal car. Let others worry about the provenance of the brake pads or the number of scratches on the air dam.
I'm not an original vette fan, but I have a quick question. Would this mean that you'd have to reuse 30 year old brake pads????? If so, that's insane...I can't ever imagine driving a vette with worn brake pads, that's crazy.
Like I said, everyone has their own views of NCRS and "original vettes". I have nothing against any of you guys, so don't take it the wrong way.
Like I said, everyone has their own views of NCRS and "original vettes". I have nothing against any of you guys, so don't take it the wrong way.
No one is insinuating having a trailer queen, a restored car or a Survivor is for everyone. If the concept of having a car in this condition offends you, don't think about it. Don't read about it. Everyone will be OK. No one will come to your house and replace your wheels against your will. Drive your car.
Secondly, the comments regarding saving the brake pads, belts, fuses and other service items... do you honestly believe that's what we are talking about? In case you have never heard of the Survivor concept it is simply about providing a preserved unrestored original example of what the cars looked like under the hood, in the interior, etc. It's an unmolested reference point. We all know it's not for everyone. We get it. It's actually hard for some people to keep unrestored cars because frankly, they often aren't all that attractive. But if the people out there that are asking ridiculous questions about keeping fuses or used brake pads are so incredibly uninformed about what we are talking about here, I worry about you.
Last edited by vettebuyer6369; Apr 2, 2008 at 03:27 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,930
Likes: 15
From: Calgary Alberta
I find it hard to believe that so many people can completely miss the point of this discussion while frequenting a Corvette web forum.
No one is insinuating having a trailer queen, a restored car or a Survivor is for everyone. If the concept of having a car in this condition offends you, don't think about it. Don't read about it. Everyone will be OK. No one will come to your house and replace your wheels against your will. Drive your car.
Secondly, the comments regarding saving the brake pads, belts, fuses and other service items... do you honestly believe that's what we are talking about? In case you have never heard of the Survivor concept it is simply about providing a preserved unrestored original example of what the cars looked like under the hood, in the interior, etc. It's an unmolested reference point. We all know it's not for everyone. We get it. It's actually hard for some people to keep unrestored cars because frankly, they often aren't all that attractive. But if the people out there that are asking ridiculous questions about keeping fuses or used brake pads are so incredibly uninformed about what we are talking about here, I worry about you.
No one is insinuating having a trailer queen, a restored car or a Survivor is for everyone. If the concept of having a car in this condition offends you, don't think about it. Don't read about it. Everyone will be OK. No one will come to your house and replace your wheels against your will. Drive your car.
Secondly, the comments regarding saving the brake pads, belts, fuses and other service items... do you honestly believe that's what we are talking about? In case you have never heard of the Survivor concept it is simply about providing a preserved unrestored original example of what the cars looked like under the hood, in the interior, etc. It's an unmolested reference point. We all know it's not for everyone. We get it. It's actually hard for some people to keep unrestored cars because frankly, they often aren't all that attractive. But if the people out there that are asking ridiculous questions about keeping fuses or used brake pads are so incredibly uninformed about what we are talking about here, I worry about you.
I was just asking a question because I was curious, I didn't mean to offend anyone. Sorry if I did:o
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 19
From: Oswego New York
I find it hard to believe that so many people can completely miss the point of this discussion while frequenting a Corvette web forum.
No one is insinuating having a trailer queen, a restored car or a Survivor is for everyone. If the concept of having a car in this condition offends you, don't think about it. Don't read about it. Everyone will be OK. No one will come to your house and replace your wheels against your will. Drive your car.
Secondly, the comments regarding saving the brake pads, belts, fuses and other service items... do you honestly believe that's what we are talking about? In case you have never heard of the Survivor concept it is simply about providing a preserved unrestored original example of what the cars looked like under the hood, in the interior, etc. It's an unmolested reference point. We all know it's not for everyone. We get it. It's actually hard for some people to keep unrestored cars because frankly, they often aren't all that attractive. But if the people out there that are asking ridiculous questions about keeping fuses or used brake pads are so incredibly uninformed about what we are talking about here, I worry about you.
No one is insinuating having a trailer queen, a restored car or a Survivor is for everyone. If the concept of having a car in this condition offends you, don't think about it. Don't read about it. Everyone will be OK. No one will come to your house and replace your wheels against your will. Drive your car.
Secondly, the comments regarding saving the brake pads, belts, fuses and other service items... do you honestly believe that's what we are talking about? In case you have never heard of the Survivor concept it is simply about providing a preserved unrestored original example of what the cars looked like under the hood, in the interior, etc. It's an unmolested reference point. We all know it's not for everyone. We get it. It's actually hard for some people to keep unrestored cars because frankly, they often aren't all that attractive. But if the people out there that are asking ridiculous questions about keeping fuses or used brake pads are so incredibly uninformed about what we are talking about here, I worry about you.
You apparently took my post the polar opposite of what I intended ... don't worry ... we'll all survive!
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,547
Likes: 12
From: Carbondale Pa.
Help me out here
So to my mind , if I were to park my new ( 1st. owner) Corvette in a garage/storage facility/ or what ever in 1971 and never ever use it at all for all those years untill today and have it judged what catagory would it fall under,at what venue or suppose I used the car on only nice sunshiney days of 80* or more and accumulated a few thousand miles for all those years,,,,Catagory ?
It seems that maybe I would have enjoyed the car much more if I had driven it thruout all those years and maintaining it as necessary come rain or shine , Catagory ? Nice original unmolested Corvettes are very nice to look at and I do appreciate that those owners are preserving a legend , wow, what self-restraint. Dont want to stir the pot with this, just curious, Peace,,,Moosie
It seems that maybe I would have enjoyed the car much more if I had driven it thruout all those years and maintaining it as necessary come rain or shine , Catagory ? Nice original unmolested Corvettes are very nice to look at and I do appreciate that those owners are preserving a legend , wow, what self-restraint. Dont want to stir the pot with this, just curious, Peace,,,Moosie
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,140
Likes: 7
From: Ohio
So to my mind , if I were to park my new ( 1st. owner) Corvette in a garage/storage facility/ or what ever in 1971 and never ever use it at all for all those years untill today and have it judged what catagory would it fall under,at what venue or suppose I used the car on only nice sunshiney days of 80* or more and accumulated a few thousand miles for all those years,,,,Catagory ?
It seems that maybe I would have enjoyed the car much more if I had driven it thruout all those years and maintaining it as necessary come rain or shine , Catagory ? Nice original unmolested Corvettes are very nice to look at and I do appreciate that those owners are preserving a legend , wow, what self-restraint. Dont want to stir the pot with this, just curious, Peace,,,Moosie
It seems that maybe I would have enjoyed the car much more if I had driven it thruout all those years and maintaining it as necessary come rain or shine , Catagory ? Nice original unmolested Corvettes are very nice to look at and I do appreciate that those owners are preserving a legend , wow, what self-restraint. Dont want to stir the pot with this, just curious, Peace,,,Moosie
The best chance for a Bowtie car is one with low miles,regular maintance and very few original parts replaced. No one has took a spray bomb to the chassis or under the hood. No paint work or repairs to the body. Nicks in the paint and wear on the seats is fine. Surivor is much eaiser as the pecentage is less and cars with higher milage get the award every year. Plus a pass vote in three out of four areas is a surivor.
I am truly in awe of those guys/gals that can maintain their cars to a level worthy of either award, it must be hard unless they own multiples, Peace,,,Moosie