I need an opinion and maybe some advice from those that have done this on their Pace Cars. Little Jake did an awesome job painting my car and he had the decals installed by a professional.

Jake had an issue with the "Limited Edition" Decals peeling before I picked the car up. I called Phoenix Graphics where I origionally ordered the set and the are sending me 2 replacement decals.

The Problem is now some of the "Official Pace Car" Decals are starting to peel. I spent almost $300 for the entire set and I definitely want them on the car.

Here is my question. Do I ask the company to replace these as well or maybe split the cost (Original cost is $169 for just the doors and the indy flying tire)and go with the reproduction set again? They have been making these for years and are licensed by GM to make official reproductions.

I also have the opportunity to buy an original set of the decals that came with a Pace Car in the GM part boxes. I can buy these for $115.

My concern is could the original decals maybe be more brittle and harder to install?

I am not sure if original or reproduction is better? Anybody have experience with the reproductions?

I just hate to worry about them peeling and looking like crap.

 

I wouldn't trust thirty year old decals and everytime the question comes up, an owner has been advised not to install those due to what you reference...the brittle. Ask for replacements.

 

Thanks, kind of what I thought.

 

Obviously your complaint will be with either the installer or the graphics company. The graphics company should request that a local rep from the decal film company (3M, Avery, etc.) examine your decals to determine if it is a decal problem or an application problem. That will determine who pays for replacement material and installation. Nothing should come out of your pocket. But a professional determination needs to be made before bullets fly.

Each film manufacturer has a shelf life spec for each grade of film and a storage recommendation. High quality films with a good adhesive have a fairly long shelf life exceeding one year, but as they get older they become more difficult to install, so the installer would have had to make that call during installation if he had any doubts.

I would stay away from the NOS decals.

 

I agree with ahoover, I would want to find out why they are peeling and find out the reason why. I wouldnt use the old decals because materials and glue break down over time. (I would think, not an expert). I think shelf life would also come into play.

 

I posted in the original thread and I wanted to post it here, I will pay for a new decal kit if Phoenix Graphics doesnt want to replace, or fusses about replacing the decals that are peeling. It ultimately rests with me and im not one to split hairs or point fingers and argue with Phoenix Graphics over $300.

Mike I am sorry you are having this problem. Please let me know what needs to be done.

 

My first question would be "Did the installer use Water with just a few drops of liquid soap to do the install"? If so then the warranty is more than likely void. Lots of sign shops will tell you to do this if you're installing the graphics yourself, (not mine) but I'm not aware of any vinyl manufacturer that will tell you this. In fact most will tell you it will void their warranty.
As soon as the soapy water hits the adhesive it starts breaking it down. That's what soap is supposed to do. And then you take a squeege and apply pressure to get the vinyl to stick which aggravates and breaks the adhesive down even more.
Using liquids are never to be used as a standard method of vinyl application, but if you're in a position where you feel you have to use liquid then there are some designed for this such as Rapid Tach & Quick Stick. The reason you don't normally hear them recommended is that they run around 25 - 30 bucks a gallon. The reason most sign & graphics shops don't recommend it is because most shops are not quality oriented. They tend to run their shops on quantity instead of quality because in large metro areas there's a shop on every corner and they feel like they have to do this to compete.. And with printers and plotters getting cheaper in price and quality it's just getting worse.

Looking through the resto thread, the one shot I saw of the graphics being applied it didn't look like the installer was using any type of liquid. And after seeing Jake's work I wouldn't imagine him using anyone that didn't know their trade and know better than to use liquid soap on graphics.
I think just from my 20 + years in vinyl graphics that this is a peeling question that's not going to be handled without a true professional examining the vinyl. There's way too many factors that could have caused this.

As far as the NOS decals go I'd stay away from using them on the car. 30 years ago they were more than likely printed on Mylar rather than vinyl and Mylar has a terrible reputation for cracking and yellowing under normal day to day circumstances as it is. Much less being 30 years old. They would be kinda cool to have on a display shelf though.

I know there's a lot of folks on the forum that have or do work in vinyl graphics, but I'd like to put myself out there if I can ever offer any advice on the subject. I may not be the best in the country, but I do know enough to start a good argument.

 

I don't know if they used it, but I gave them a bottle of a solution the company recommends and sells to allow more time to set the decal.

 

If they supplied the solution with the graphics, that would eliminate their argument of using the wrong solution. That's a good start...

 

I thought I would post some pics of the decals peeling.

 

Could some of the products used to finish the paint be an issue?

 

The installer didnt use any liquid and he didnt use the bottle of supplied stuff to give him more time. He is a pro and didnt need the extra time to set the decals, in the thread you can see he taped up the decals in the correct position, measured them off and then peeled half and squeegied down and then completed the other side. The only time you would use liquid (I would think) is to give you the ability to slide the decal around to the desired position.

After the decals were applied the only thing that happened to the paint was a wash and hand wax before swtato picked his car up.

Im calling Phoenix Graphics for swtato on Monday to see if we can figure out what happened.

 

that stuff happens with decal. I dont really think it is Jakes fault tho.

 

Definitely not blaming Jake, I think there is an issue with the decal itself.

 

That's the shot I was talking about, it showed he was doing just what he should have done.

It's so hard to say just from the pics Swtato posted, but from what you can see, and it being mostly the corners coming up, it looks like they were simply a set that had sat around for a while and the transfer tape started curling as it will in a short amount of time, and the edges got dust on the adhesive or simply dried out. It happens, and I'd bet dime to a dollar that Phoenix sends a set to replace them with no problems at all.

My big concern would be getting the decals off the fresh paint. It doesn't always work but I advise people to wait at least 90 days before applying vinyl to fresh paint. I have done it days after the paint had been done, but against my better judgment.

 

Reading your original post sounds like from Jakes experience the decals were going to be an issue before you picked it up. Most likely these decals should of never been shipped for installation.

 

Just to be clear in case my comment led someone to believe I was blaming Jake.I wasnt at all.I know nothing about painting and was only wondering if some of these new paint products could disagree with the old decals?The old decals went over lacquer could it take longer for this newer paint to cure?How long after painting did the factory wait until they put the decals on? Didnt most of the PCs come with the decals in a box with the car?

 

They have probably been sitting around for a while and the adhesive had started to dry/deteriorate at the edges.
Probably not a huge market for these decals anyway.

Back in the 70's, I did a bunch of Trans Am's.
All GM branded decals, there weren't any repops back then.
GM instructions said to use water with them and it would be very hard to put that huge hood chicken decal on there without the water.
They probably didn't use the green water based adhesives back then either. The oem decals had a fair amount of stretch to them when using a squeegee.
Never ever had a problem and would put them on the next day after painting. Even clear coated over a few of the cars right away with Imron.

 

My friend just put NOS decals on a pace car that went to Carlisle. They had been stored in a climate controlled area since '78. He got them on and they looked good, but he said it was a lot of trouble.

 

I owned and operated a vinyl sign business for 15 years. Despite comments above, we would always use a dilute (50% water/ 50% Rapid Tack) soliution when applying vinyl graphics. Especially large scale graphics. If the vinyl is peeling at the corners like that, it would imply that the surface wasn't properly cleaned prior to the vinyl application, or that the fresh paint is out gassing volitiles that are affecting the vinyl adhesive. While we did use Rapid Tack as an application fluid (and surface cleaner at times) it was because of the warranty issues, not because soapy water didn't work as well. We also would use water with about 1 capfull per gallon of Ivory Liquid soap. It dosen't have any citrus oils in it (like so many of the dish soaps do) and they would definitely destroy the adhesive on the vinyl. If you used the commercial application fluid (which is mostly just soapy water anyway) that they provided and the decals are peeling, I'm voting for surface preparation or out gassing. If the vinyl supplier will help you out with replacements at half price, they're coming more that half way to meet you. That's how I would have handled it with a customer if they had application problems.

Oh yeah. Stay away from NOS graphics. Even if the materials are acceptable, they are long past their shelf life and the adhesives are probably breaking down. You'll likely wind up with a job that looks like your photos again. The modern materials are much better and are more UV hearty than the old stuff.