I need to learn some facts here, and yea, I get long winded but need the info so please bear with me,
I did a search and was amazed how many people spewed without shining any light on the questions other fellows and I now have,

About 12 years ago I restored a VW trike, and while stripping the frame I all but destroyed the VIN tag, I just wasn't paying attention, it was a little aluminum plate with stamped number and silk screen on it,

So I freak out I call the DMV as I had already titled the thing into my name,
I had to get an officer out, she looks at the pieces of what was left of the tag and I would say more on trust than what was left sighed a form that in turn allowed the state to issue me a new FL Vin decal, not metal plate, SAME number as before.

I was happy as a pig in shi...slop but I get to thinking, Corvette purists would not be too happy if the metal stamped tag on the pillar was rotted out and the replacement was a state issued "decal"

Lets say the car, the VIN, the title are 100% legal, no chop shop, no funny business just a poor soul restoring a rust bucket, But the pillar tag is rotted,
Is it fact that a person can not replace that tag with one that looks like the original in other words no company makes a replacement for a proven legal car?
What do fellows with a rotted out VIN tags do, just deal with and live with the "new" looking state replacement decal?

No need to tell me to call my DMV, I know the lady who handles weird title issues by her first name and she couldn't care less about matching original stuff.

I have heard that there are "hidden" VIN numbers all over the car, on C3's where is another one located, this would come in handy for making sure a car I look at is legal,

Many thanks...this is an important one for me...

 

As far as the "hidden" VINs, there are a couple stamped on the frame. One is on the top of the main frame rail, about under the driver side door jam. A second is stamped on the top of the frame on the drivers side above about where it goes over the half shaft. With a wire brush, a mirror and a little luck the second one can sometimes be seen with the body still on.

On the replacement VIN tags, most states use a metal plate now (it's more permanent) but issue a new number, not the original VIN. Years ago, Chevrolet would reinstall VIN tags for owners who had recovered their own stolen car. You needed police reports, your original title, and I think some other documentation to get them to do it. The draw back was that even though you got your original VIN number, the VIN tag they would use was the type that was then currently being used on new cars, not the style original to the car.

Because of Federal Laws involving stolen cars and fraud associated with rebuilt totaled or flood cars (and maybe even Homeland Security issues???), I don't think this is allowed or legal anymore.

 

I recently looked at a '69 L-68 Fathom green convertible for 50K at Hot August Nites car corral. It had a metal rectangular VIN plate in the proper winshield pillar location, but the numbers were smaller in font size and were debossed. The owner seemed surprised when I pointed it out. I passed on the car because of this. California plated car.

 

It depends on the car really.It would kill a Bb tri-power car,and hurt others.There are plenty of companies that make vin tags that NO ONE could tell the difference.The problem is getting the pop rivets.They are special,and very,very rare,and hard to come by.It is also,illegal to tamper w/a vin in any way.
Like the previous guy said...there are also frame numbers.I had a 71 LT1 theft recovery awhile back,and the original vin was still in place,but it got issued a rebuilt title.The motor,and trans was gone,and the cops literally busted a hole in the rear quarter,and rear deck to get at the frame number by the #4 mount.I made good coin parting it out tho'!
If it was a custom car,and mid 70s then it wouldn't hurt it like a original car,or a rare car.

 

Thanks guys!!!
This is so much more informative than any other threads about VIN plates on here,
So if you have a legal car you can get a new VIN plate from DMV but the purists won't like it because won't match the old factory original but it will be legal,

When they issues that "decal" for my trike I had to go to an office, and a disinterested officer comes out to the trike with me, she didn't want to lay on the ground and had me apply it, then a clear decal over it,
I thought how long can a decal last.

I have no idea if at the time that is how they would treat a car the trike was titled "motorcycle"

Now these frame stamped VIN's seems they could get rusted away or not make it thru many restorations, Kustom8 I wonder what those officers would have done if yours had been rusted away after knocking holes to find it...

 

Hate to say this, but reality check, as easy as a NCRS resto judge is fooled by some fake, I know ANY DMV is more easy to fool...

those pop rivits can be had, along with any tag you need....

and frames are swapped every damn day, so that is meaningless....

engine numbers are faked too....even the casting numbers....

 

I want to be clear I am talking LEGAL cars here,

So "Fred" buys a basket case, like with many c3's the windshield frame is all rotted out,
One case would be he must remove the VIN tag to restore the windshield frame, second case the VIN tag is rotted and needs replacement, "Fred" wants to keep his car looking all showroom stock what does he do?

I am getting the gist the 1000's of people who restore all kinds of cars just fix the rotten VIN tag as part of the restoration and leave the DMV out of it,
The car is legal the title is legal as is the VIN number.

 

Well, I don't know about "thousands", but yes, the fact is that if your VIN tag and/or windshield frame are sufficiently rotted that they must be replaced, it is possible (and the internet has made it infinitely easier) to get a replacement tag and the appropriate rivets such that a DMV person or the average LEO will never know the difference. But, you were talking "legal" cars, and it is illegal to do this. Tampering with the tag in any way, and most especially replacing the tag, is illegal.

This is one of those "zero tolerance" type of laws in my mind though. If I was in the middle of a frame-off and was repairing the birdcage and it became necessary to replace the original VIN tag, I think it SHOULD be legal for me to go through some legal process to get a new tag that looks like the original did and put it on my car. But I can also see that of all cars produced, only a tiny fraction of them will ever need this service, so it doesn't make sense for any state to put some kind of process in place to serve a tiny minority of drivers.

 

When I said 1000's I meant all makes all models of cars being restored, in that grouping I am guessing at least more than several do need a new VIN plate,


Okay, being purely hypothetical,

"Fred" has his legal title and does his frame off restoration he is all **** over it making NCRS snuff,
He gets a "replacement" VIN tag and installs it...remember the car IS legal but that action of replacing the VIN tag himself was not,

10 years later for whatever reason, someone looks too close at the new VIN tag and says they think that it's been tampered with,
The law is called in,
So the engine is not original, yea points off from NCRS for that,
But the frame just happens to have the correct title matching VIN will Fred loose his car because someone believes the VIN tag on the pillar is not original?
Wouldn't the "law" have to prove the tag isn't right, and even then the car and title are legal, would there be a "case" any real world stories of this happening to some poor soul, perhaps they bought a car that had it gone before they bough it, but it came up haunting them,

This seems a big old bucket of worms, this really doesn't keep our cars from be stolen and cut up it just makes it hard for "fred" to restore his car to suit him....

 

I agree that there should be some way to get a vin replaced,if it is rusted,and the person has all the paperwork,but they don't care like that.I have taken vin off cars before to restore the windshield frame,and that is a high rust area on alot of these old cars.I just used regular pop rivets to put it back on,and paint the windshield frame.I have also, had vettes where the windshield frame is toast,and the vin was rusted into.
When I remove the vin for repair....I have all the paperwork on these cars,and take very detailed pictures of the vin w/damage,then take pictures of the repair,and the new vin in place.I keep copies of the title,and good records...that way I am covered,if I sell the car,or sell it as a project/whatever.
I don't know what would have happened if the frame would have been rusted on the LT1 car.The do rust on the top of the frame there where they are impossible to read.This frame was solid tho.I didn't have the car right after this happened...I got the mess a few owners later,but I was just amazed at the lack of respect they had to get to the number.
Numbers are faked all the time tho,and frames get changed out.I sell frames all the time.I take pictures of the vin on them too,and keep accurate records of frames,and tubs where there are numbers tho',so I don't have problems w/the SOS.
You just have to make sure that you are covered,and keep detailed accounts,and photos to protect you.

 

If the VIN tag looks close to original and it matches the frame numbers, no DMV employee is going to think twice about it (unless they are also an NCRS judge! ). When the numbers don't match up, that's when things would get exciting.

 

If you mess with the VIN tag you could drive your car forever and no one would know the difference. Or you could get stopped for speeding tomorrow and the cop takes a look at the tag and doesn't like it.
The car is legal, you know it is legal, but now you have a choice-

tell the cop that you replaced the vin tag with one you got from a catalog and run the risk of being arrested.

tell him you know nothing about it and have your car impounded until someone can figure out if it is legal or not. If they in fact can figure it out then get a replacement tag from DMV.

In either case you would have been better off getting a sticker from the DMV to start with. Bottom line is if you want a NCRS show car buy one with a clean VIN tag. If you have to replace a VIN tag do it right or you may pay double down the road.

 

Replacing the VIN tag may be against the law...but since the same number is going in, there is no attempt to defraud anyone for any reason. Since the car is already registered with the correct VIN, why do anything until there is some reason to do so? Then you can decide whether to replace it with a "duplicate" tag or go to the DMV for a state-issued tag.

 

If anyone saw the last Barrette Jackson this very issue came up. As I remember it someone from the DMV was present and making an issue out of VIN #s being removed from cars during restoration and then being put back on. They said it was illegal.

About ten years ago I was prepping a 63 Buick for paint. The VIN number located in the door jam fell off I did not think much about it put it in the glove box. Then five years later I moved from TN to FL where the DMV verifies VIN before transferring titles. I forgot about putting the VIN number in the glove box and the DMV person would not transfer my title. I left and went back home called the sheriffs department told them my problem. The officer told me to find the VIN number somewhere on the car possibly on the frame or he suggested it might be on a tag under the seat and he would send out an officer to do a VIN verification. I could not find it anywhere. Then I remembered what had happed brought the VIN tag back to the DMV unattached with the car. It was a no go… tag had to be on the car (I know stupid me ). I then went home glued the VIN tag back on with emblem adhesive called the sheriff department to do a VIN verification they came out did the verification I took the papers to the DMV and got the titled transferred

 

1. The Frame does not show the VIN#, it only shows the VIN Derivitive ( like the engine Stamp). would this be enough to prove to LEO or DMV the VIN# of the car?.. who knows, depends on their mood that day.

2. It is not illegal to remove a VIN tag. is it illegal to tamper with it... look up tamper n the dictionary. People remove their VIN tag all the time. anything done with the intent of fraud or ill gotten gain should be punishable. but restoration... no, nothing wrong with that... if the DMV folks give someone a hard time about registering a car, then force the issue, tell them to charge you with a crime and see how it pans out..

3. Search the forum for references to VIN tag replacement, they are available.

 

Please don't mix inaccurate info about the NCRS into discussions about VIN tags. There is no 'penalty' of any sorts in NCRS judging regarding state issued VINs.

 

What you said makes a lot of sense, but simply not correct.
Speaking from a lot of first hand experience with this, special units that replace vins, have the power to decide what the new title and vin will say and you have no recourse.

Show them a car with a vin that you took off and reinstalled, you will end up with a state plate, doesn't matter how good your story is.
It is also illegal to to just posses the rosette rivits period. People here have gone to jail for that. No cop is going to ignore a blatent crime and risk their job, just for you.

Put a 73 coupe body on a 78 4x4 GMC frame (you have seen them) and you may end up having the new title and state plate showing a 79 GMC and nothing you can do about it. Or make a 69 vert out of 76 parts. You will likely end up getting a title of the lesser value.
It's called a heavy badge, they do it because they can.

Go to court and let a judge decide, dumb move, you have already admitted to commiting Federal crimes.

What people do, what they get away with and what the law says are not the same.

If you have ever seen these guys work, you can rest assured that there is no need for them to bust holes to access derivitive numbers,that's . These guys do it 40 hours a week, you better be pretty dam good trying to bs them.

 

Joewill
I hope you do not live in FL as you are clueless as to what FL DMV allows and doesn't allow,

Actually why don't you call FL DMV
407-445-7400 ask for Linda, ask her if she sees removing the VIN tag for ANY reason tampering with it, and she will tell you how it really is,

Charge you with a crime if you call out the DMV?....well, while they impound your newly restored mega dollar car for having a suspicious looking VIN tag they will decide what crime they will charge you with,
Proving the car and VIN numbers are legal will not white wash messing with the VIN tag itself in FL.

But before you flame off on me, answer this, how do you reinstall your VIN plate with the required Rosette rivets when they are illegal to own?

FL is cool this way,

This thread was for me to learn the laws and the truth, not a version of what someone thinks but what the DMV says floats or doesn't,
I have passed on the car in question, because I want to do it legal.

 

This is not about DMV giving a new VIN tag.. I don't have a problem with that.
It is about forfeiting your car because a rivet does not look 'original'

actually, do a search on this forum and many other forums, you will see that this subject is pretty worn out... I don't have problem with playing by the DMV rules..
who says those rivets are illegal to own?... thousands of us own these rivets, attached decades ago by the manufacturer...
if the dmv requires a new vin tag due to suspicious rivets, or too new looking a vin tag and give you a new VIN tag of their choosing, so be it..I'll take the new tag. but if the dmv impounds my car on only a suspicion I would require that they prove it and charge me with possession of a stolen car. Then the lawsuits start...

the definition of Tampering is nebulous and if I am a clean law abiding citizen and can show proof that I own the car, most of the time I can register the car.. perhaps I will get a new vin tag.. but if my car is stolen, then I want to know about it so I can start the lawsuits with the previous owners..

contrary to another previous post.. a suspicion will not hold up in court, and yes, I would let a judge decide. yes of course a overzealous person with power can make my life miserable, but why would they do that if my record is clean and I can show doc that I own the car and who I bought it from and that I bought it in good faith, and politely ask them what I need to do to get around the problem??

if some state determines that I might have removed the vin tag and replaced it during restoration and by the letter of the law, I broke the law, then so be it, I pay the consequences.. but if I prove my car and vin #s are legit they still make me forfeit my car? is this **** Germany?

Tampering means to interfere in a harmful manner..

These laws are meant to keep the bad guys at bay... and give the good guys rules to play by..

there are documented cases where the assembly plant ran out of rivets and used screws... do I get my car impounded for that?


remember.. you can't sit on the toilet without breaking a law somewhere....

 

Joewill,
Thanks for coming back to earth to a degree,

While I will leave most of what you just said alone, in FL and if you do it by the book legal and you have wrong rivets or lol screws on the VIN tag and FL impounds your car for "suspicious" looking VIN plate while you might prove it's a legal car, your legal car, you will either have to admit you tampered with the VIN tag or punk out and say it was like that when you bought it,

In that case a judge steps in and decides if the car is really legal and yours and like it or not your attitude will play a part,
If all that is left on said car is that tampered VIN plate that has a number who knows, catch the judge on a bad day and no telling the hell you will go thru and that is before he does want ever for tampering with a VIN,

But you will not be suing the state for something you caused breaking the law,


But...lets see the documentation you spoke of proving the factory used screws.