best engines
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 5
From: Japan
[QUOTE=aussiejohn;1579689229]
Aussiejohn, I wasn't trying to assert that Zora INVENTED the hemispherical combustion chamber, but rather the staggered/opposed/semi-wacky valvetrain/pushrod/rocker arrangement that made it possible to have laterally opposed valves in a single-cam pushrod V8. A couple guys on this thread seemed to be dissin' the old hemi pretty badly and were apparently unaware that said motor actually had its origins in the father of the Corvette. As regards Sir Jack, I read his autobio co-authored by Doug Nye not long ago, and although I knew well of his exploits beforehand I was ten times more impressed with him after reading the book...what a truly incredible guy.
the Chrysler Hemi...its design was actually pirated from the aftermarket 'Ardun' heads that Zora Arkus-Duntov created for the flathead Ford in the 1940s.
..in the early 1950s Chrysler adapted the design for their 331 Hemi by combining the head design with a proper 5-main bearing crank, eventually increasing its displacement to 354, 392, and 426 ci.
birdsmith,
I seem to remember that Peugeot introduced the "hemi" head design in their four cylinder engines in the twenties or even earlier, so Zora would have known about this design before he came to America.
Chrysler had, IIRC, a 265, 331, 354 and a 392 cubic inch engines on the old, rear distributor position V8s. No 426 version. When they introduced the modern wedge combustion chamber B and RB blocks, with the front mounted distributor, the capacities were 383, 400, 413, 426 and 440. With racing classes limiting capacity to 7 litres, or 426 c.i., they rejigged the 426 wedge with modern ( 1966 era ) hemi heads, but these engines bore no resemblance to the earlier hemis.
C6DuffMan,
Yes, Rover used the BOP engine to power their early Range Rovers and the Rover 3500 sedan. In Australia in the early seventies, Leyland Australia created a car called the P76 that had a 4.4 litre ( about 270 c.i. ) version of this engine and this car was way superior to the Holdens, Falcons and Valiants of the time that were made by the "Big 3" . Unfortunately, pressure by the Big 3 on the government and some bad publicity saw the P76 have only a three year run before Leyland Australia went the way of the dodo.
However, in 1964, just after the BOP aluminum engine was released in the USA, Australia's foremost Formula One driver/car builder/engineer, Jack Brabham, used this engine to build a Formula One engine that won him a World Formula One title, and New Zealander Denny Hulme won the world title next year with the same engine, IIRC.
Sir Jack ( he was later knighted ) not only personally built the Formula One car that he drove to a world championship, he was actively involved in the design of the engine itself. With the help of ex- Vincent motorcycle engineer, the late Phil Irving, they designed a single overhead camshaft cylinder head, a stud girdle, a flat plane crankshaft and a fuel injection system for the BOP engine.
De-stroked to three litres, this engine took the world by storm and cemented Sir Jack Brabham as the most gifted Formula One driver of all time. No other driver has ever won a Formula One race in a car that they not only designed, but built themselves. And to make the trifecta, Sir Jack also helped design the engine as well.
But back to the original question. If sales numbers are the criterion, then the SBC wins hands down. No argument. In Australia, the old Holden inline six with 149, 161, 173, 179, 186 and 202 cubic inch versions would win the prize, but then, we do things differently Down Under.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
..in the early 1950s Chrysler adapted the design for their 331 Hemi by combining the head design with a proper 5-main bearing crank, eventually increasing its displacement to 354, 392, and 426 ci.
birdsmith,
I seem to remember that Peugeot introduced the "hemi" head design in their four cylinder engines in the twenties or even earlier, so Zora would have known about this design before he came to America.
Chrysler had, IIRC, a 265, 331, 354 and a 392 cubic inch engines on the old, rear distributor position V8s. No 426 version. When they introduced the modern wedge combustion chamber B and RB blocks, with the front mounted distributor, the capacities were 383, 400, 413, 426 and 440. With racing classes limiting capacity to 7 litres, or 426 c.i., they rejigged the 426 wedge with modern ( 1966 era ) hemi heads, but these engines bore no resemblance to the earlier hemis.
C6DuffMan,
Yes, Rover used the BOP engine to power their early Range Rovers and the Rover 3500 sedan. In Australia in the early seventies, Leyland Australia created a car called the P76 that had a 4.4 litre ( about 270 c.i. ) version of this engine and this car was way superior to the Holdens, Falcons and Valiants of the time that were made by the "Big 3" . Unfortunately, pressure by the Big 3 on the government and some bad publicity saw the P76 have only a three year run before Leyland Australia went the way of the dodo.
However, in 1964, just after the BOP aluminum engine was released in the USA, Australia's foremost Formula One driver/car builder/engineer, Jack Brabham, used this engine to build a Formula One engine that won him a World Formula One title, and New Zealander Denny Hulme won the world title next year with the same engine, IIRC.
Sir Jack ( he was later knighted ) not only personally built the Formula One car that he drove to a world championship, he was actively involved in the design of the engine itself. With the help of ex- Vincent motorcycle engineer, the late Phil Irving, they designed a single overhead camshaft cylinder head, a stud girdle, a flat plane crankshaft and a fuel injection system for the BOP engine.
De-stroked to three litres, this engine took the world by storm and cemented Sir Jack Brabham as the most gifted Formula One driver of all time. No other driver has ever won a Formula One race in a car that they not only designed, but built themselves. And to make the trifecta, Sir Jack also helped design the engine as well.
But back to the original question. If sales numbers are the criterion, then the SBC wins hands down. No argument. In Australia, the old Holden inline six with 149, 161, 173, 179, 186 and 202 cubic inch versions would win the prize, but then, we do things differently Down Under.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,223
Likes: 4
From: Regina Saskatchewan
It all depends on how you define 'the best'
Heres something to chew on -
How about the Ford Model T engine. The engine was a front-mounted inline four-cylinder block engine (that is, all four cylinders in one block, as common now, rather than in individual castings, as common then) and was first in the world with a detachable head, making service like valve jobs easier. The engine was capable of running on petrol, kerosene, or ethanol. At one time 1/2 of all cars in the world had this Ford engine . Some Model Ts are 100 yrs old and still running. Ford built these engines until 1941.
50% of the WORLDS car owners chose to have this engine under their hood at one time in history. Maybe it was the 'best'.
Like I said - just something to chew on.
Heres something to chew on -
How about the Ford Model T engine. The engine was a front-mounted inline four-cylinder block engine (that is, all four cylinders in one block, as common now, rather than in individual castings, as common then) and was first in the world with a detachable head, making service like valve jobs easier. The engine was capable of running on petrol, kerosene, or ethanol. At one time 1/2 of all cars in the world had this Ford engine . Some Model Ts are 100 yrs old and still running. Ford built these engines until 1941.
50% of the WORLDS car owners chose to have this engine under their hood at one time in history. Maybe it was the 'best'.
Like I said - just something to chew on.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,944
Likes: 20
From: The only Corvettes in Highett Victoria
No offense intended.
birdsmith,
Sorry if my comment seemed rude, that was not the intent, I was just posting what I thought was the earliest use of the hemi head design, from which all others have evolved, regardless of the number of cylinders.
As for Sir Jack, he still attends motor races throughout Australia, and is often at the Melbourne Formula One event in March each year.
Long may he reign.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
Sorry if my comment seemed rude, that was not the intent, I was just posting what I thought was the earliest use of the hemi head design, from which all others have evolved, regardless of the number of cylinders.
As for Sir Jack, he still attends motor races throughout Australia, and is often at the Melbourne Formula One event in March each year.
Long may he reign.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,314
Likes: 508
From: South-central Missouri
By just about any criteria, the SBC has to be one. But, I want to toss the 32 valve DOHC LT5 into the mix for consideration:
The LT5 holds several world records for a production car, including the highest average speed over 24 hours, the fastest average over 5000km. Designed (primarily) by Lotus engineering to race and beat all the production cars of its day, and built by Mercury Marine, they were ahead of their time. Even in 350 ci form they're holding their own against most contemporary (Vettes or whatever) sporting much bigger cid.
During it's development, an LT5 was run continuously for over a week, cycling between max rpm and max torque. It was torn down, and deemed ready to be reassembled and run some again - testimony to the design and attention to build quality. The power this design makes/displacement WHILE keeping its street manners...is simply amazing! Many with full porting and stock cams are making over 500 hp and idle like a stock sedan. The LSx motors are engineering feats, to be sure, but owe much to the lessons learned during the development of the LT5. (I'm just sayin.
)
Many in-line 6s come to mind; Ford Chebby, Dodge, AMC (in their day). The in-line 6 is inherently well balanced, typically resulting in long service life in a wide array of applications; cars, trucks, semi-tractors, to name a few. (The Jeep 4.0L has to be one of the best, IMO. I've had 3 of them, and none of them has ever given me trouble, and they all went over 250k miles w/o using oil. I currently have one with over 345k miles - replaced nothing but the plugs (and oil, etc of course), and it runs as sweet as a little sewing machine to this day!)
Assuming piston-driven motors, but getting away from automotive, then one has to marvel at the aircraft engines such as the Rolls Royce and Merlin V-12s and the BMW inverted V12 in the 109 Messerschmidt. And, not to forget the incredible radials, e.g., the invincible R4300s and the R4550 (?) that were known to be able to suffer bullets through the cylinder heads, and STILL bring their pilots home. These engines sported turbochargers, superchargers, intercoolers, direct fuel injection, water injection, nitros, hemi-spherical cylinders, etc, 10 years before the SBC was launched, and decades before it showed up in the automotive industry. It's been said the development of the reciprocating engine reached it's epitome during WWII, and technology forged in combat paved the way to many contemporary (automotive) development.
Engine science is a fascinating subject. It is always very interesting in what comes from engineering efforts to meet a variety of requirements.
I think the best is yet to come. Or, put another way, some of what is coming out now is among the best of the best. To hell with the "good ol days". The automotive industry has never seen it so good as it does right now, methinks!
P.
The LT5 holds several world records for a production car, including the highest average speed over 24 hours, the fastest average over 5000km. Designed (primarily) by Lotus engineering to race and beat all the production cars of its day, and built by Mercury Marine, they were ahead of their time. Even in 350 ci form they're holding their own against most contemporary (Vettes or whatever) sporting much bigger cid.
During it's development, an LT5 was run continuously for over a week, cycling between max rpm and max torque. It was torn down, and deemed ready to be reassembled and run some again - testimony to the design and attention to build quality. The power this design makes/displacement WHILE keeping its street manners...is simply amazing! Many with full porting and stock cams are making over 500 hp and idle like a stock sedan. The LSx motors are engineering feats, to be sure, but owe much to the lessons learned during the development of the LT5. (I'm just sayin.
)Many in-line 6s come to mind; Ford Chebby, Dodge, AMC (in their day). The in-line 6 is inherently well balanced, typically resulting in long service life in a wide array of applications; cars, trucks, semi-tractors, to name a few. (The Jeep 4.0L has to be one of the best, IMO. I've had 3 of them, and none of them has ever given me trouble, and they all went over 250k miles w/o using oil. I currently have one with over 345k miles - replaced nothing but the plugs (and oil, etc of course), and it runs as sweet as a little sewing machine to this day!)
Assuming piston-driven motors, but getting away from automotive, then one has to marvel at the aircraft engines such as the Rolls Royce and Merlin V-12s and the BMW inverted V12 in the 109 Messerschmidt. And, not to forget the incredible radials, e.g., the invincible R4300s and the R4550 (?) that were known to be able to suffer bullets through the cylinder heads, and STILL bring their pilots home. These engines sported turbochargers, superchargers, intercoolers, direct fuel injection, water injection, nitros, hemi-spherical cylinders, etc, 10 years before the SBC was launched, and decades before it showed up in the automotive industry. It's been said the development of the reciprocating engine reached it's epitome during WWII, and technology forged in combat paved the way to many contemporary (automotive) development.
Engine science is a fascinating subject. It is always very interesting in what comes from engineering efforts to meet a variety of requirements.
I think the best is yet to come. Or, put another way, some of what is coming out now is among the best of the best. To hell with the "good ol days". The automotive industry has never seen it so good as it does right now, methinks!
P.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 5
From: Japan
birdsmith,
Sorry if my comment seemed rude, that was not the intent, I was just posting what I thought was the earliest use of the hemi head design, from which all others have evolved, regardless of the number of cylinders.
As for Sir Jack, he still attends motor races throughout Australia, and is often at the Melbourne Formula One event in March each year.
Long may he reign.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
Sorry if my comment seemed rude, that was not the intent, I was just posting what I thought was the earliest use of the hemi head design, from which all others have evolved, regardless of the number of cylinders.
As for Sir Jack, he still attends motor races throughout Australia, and is often at the Melbourne Formula One event in March each year.
Long may he reign.
Regards from Down Under.
aussiejohn
