Balwin Motion Phase III back window question
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 11,608
Likes: 780
From: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
I actually did post pics of some of the cars on the yenko.net board a long time ago. Marty Schorr emailed me asking me to send him pics but to be honest I don't think much of Joel's attitude and that's why I stopped posting my pics. I don't want to get too off topic but very quickly Joel likes to threaten to sue if you use the word motion but the fact is his cars are based on a GM trademark and has no standing although he still likes to send c&d letters.
Now as far as I know not all 11 or so cars had the rear window. Atbleast 1 does not and that was the first one. Pictures from the 1969 Autorama Car Show show the first GT car, the prototype and that car does not have the rear window or single headlight nose. The pictures tell the story. It's a orange car, black stripe, narrow band around the rear. Stock taillights also. Going through many magazine articles from the late 60's and early 70s you can see several of the Gt cars. Back in the 80s myself and a good friend tried to piece together these cars. We tried to figure out what was out there and possibly made. Nobody cared back then. We visited Joel a few times. Then when people started paying stupid money for these cars starting in the very late 80s Joel started picking our brains. We saw a pic of this gold car but painted blue. Owners were sending Joel pics of there car to see if he might have built it. This was before he started seeing dollar signs. Of course being the only one with the Shelby scoop my friend immediately recognized it. Nobody would have known enough to fake it at that time. Joel did not recognize the car.
If you pay enough attention you can start to pick out very subtle details even in old photos to recognize specific cars. I build small scale replicas for a living. That's the reason I wanted to research these cars so bad back then, back when I could see better. I was building models of these cars. And I also know certain BM cars are not restored the way they were originally built by BM.
As far as every other day someone claims to have a motion car is no different then claiming to have an L88 or even a L71. It comes down to what you can prove. Of course the numbers mean something NOW. But back when they were being built it was only about numbers of dollars at the end of the day.
Clone cars of motion cars are also no different than a clone L88 or whatever you like. But pictures do tell quite a lot when you know what to look for. But that is also just a piece of proving or disproving a cars history. Everything can be replicated. Everything. So you need to do your due diligence and homework.
And of course who really knows if you hand over enough money will you get a letter. Anything is possible. It's not like GM can verify anything about those cars. They can't even tell us what THEY made.
I like the cars but don't need to own one. The models on my shelf are good enough....and I don't need to document them....
Now as far as I know not all 11 or so cars had the rear window. Atbleast 1 does not and that was the first one. Pictures from the 1969 Autorama Car Show show the first GT car, the prototype and that car does not have the rear window or single headlight nose. The pictures tell the story. It's a orange car, black stripe, narrow band around the rear. Stock taillights also. Going through many magazine articles from the late 60's and early 70s you can see several of the Gt cars. Back in the 80s myself and a good friend tried to piece together these cars. We tried to figure out what was out there and possibly made. Nobody cared back then. We visited Joel a few times. Then when people started paying stupid money for these cars starting in the very late 80s Joel started picking our brains. We saw a pic of this gold car but painted blue. Owners were sending Joel pics of there car to see if he might have built it. This was before he started seeing dollar signs. Of course being the only one with the Shelby scoop my friend immediately recognized it. Nobody would have known enough to fake it at that time. Joel did not recognize the car.
If you pay enough attention you can start to pick out very subtle details even in old photos to recognize specific cars. I build small scale replicas for a living. That's the reason I wanted to research these cars so bad back then, back when I could see better. I was building models of these cars. And I also know certain BM cars are not restored the way they were originally built by BM.
As far as every other day someone claims to have a motion car is no different then claiming to have an L88 or even a L71. It comes down to what you can prove. Of course the numbers mean something NOW. But back when they were being built it was only about numbers of dollars at the end of the day.
Clone cars of motion cars are also no different than a clone L88 or whatever you like. But pictures do tell quite a lot when you know what to look for. But that is also just a piece of proving or disproving a cars history. Everything can be replicated. Everything. So you need to do your due diligence and homework.
And of course who really knows if you hand over enough money will you get a letter. Anything is possible. It's not like GM can verify anything about those cars. They can't even tell us what THEY made.
I like the cars but don't need to own one. The models on my shelf are good enough....and I don't need to document them....
I used to hit ecklers back when the yellow family truckster daytona wide body and silver blue turbo where in a little showroom,
when Ralph sold the store there seemed to get hazed with a feeling to me that they were more a pep boys now than vette lovers and specialists.
I will ask my friend who worked for Ralph in the day dating back to Illinois about the gold car, he might have pictures of even worked on it.
What you were saying about other dealers selling "Motion" type cars is not the first time I have heard this, the late 60's thru the 70's custom ruled,
The parts on the Motion cars were really not unique to the world of custom although some of the MP cult would like to force people to think the are.
Ed427,
You get almost as long winded as I do
and I read your post twice before replying,I meant post pictures here no biggie, or just send them to me, the13bats@aol.com
You didn't care for his attitude? what gives me a sour taste when is comes to MP isn't anything Mr Motion did but rather his fans, who want to believe and force other to believe the parts used are motion exclusive...and the cars are the end all to be all....they are not.
I will not argue that he made the parts on his cars famous but he didn't invent all or even most of them, to his credit goes the phase hood scoop which was a popular mod in the day to place the 67 bb scoop on the lt-1/bb 68/69 hood, motion filled the dips in the 68/69 scoop, motion also gets credit for the odd firebird-ish stacked tail lights.
John Silva for example invented the Mako, the rear gt clip is Ecklers, the reversed 69 gills are a Brunos/Korky item as are the datsun headlights.
How many people know the first wide bodies and original family truckster vette were from Greenwood?
For as long as I have heard of MP I have heard that Mr Motion is this or that negative thing.
I have dealt with him, I have a receipt for the last Mako clip he sold on a nice "Motion" letterhead,
I found him a basic business fellow. I believe that for many years mr Motion has been pretty much done and over with car stuff, I would have no idea why but that's his business not mine.
I really can't blame him sending C&D letters, Yenko, Ecklers, Greenwood or anyone with a name that makes money getting a bit miffed when some cheddar Richard yahoo wants to cha-ching on their coat tails,
if you are going to go sell custom stuff and try to get attention calling it "Motion" then if Mr Motion says stop using his name I do not believe he is out of line and if you do profit with his name then let him wet his beak, 
Oddly you are no so removed from Mr Motion, he too now earns a living from selling models. but if you love the phase cars so much build one, full sized.
The problem I see with people calling clones "motion" without documents well, they are just hoping to cheat some fool as are people trying to sell fake anything, are all the 10-11 original phase cars accounted for? if so then that's it game over, or cars motion built for customers, they have some merit, and last customer built cars with real motion sold parts, with all that the "real" ones could be endless,
If you built one out of love of the car I would respect that the most of all.
I find it hard to believe that GM doesn't know how many factory L-88 vettes they sold but okay.
I have read on many forums that for a car to have motion documentation all it takes is $$$ I do not believe this for a second, the reason why, no matter the mans attitude if he wanted to get paid for bogus paperwork he could make a hell of a lot more having a shop build a run of true motion phase cars, he is the only person alive with that right, they would be sought after and high dollar, he could do it would nothing more than phone calls and some paperwork.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,100
Likes: 800
From: Massapequa Park NY
Mod75
I used to hit ecklers back when the yellow family truckster daytona wide body and silver blue turbo where in a little showroom,
when Ralph sold the store there seemed to get hazed with a feeling to me that they were more a pep boys now than vette lovers and specialists.
I will ask my friend who worked for Ralph in the day dating back to Illinois about the gold car, he might have pictures of even worked on it.
What you were saying about other dealers selling "Motion" type cars is not the first time I have heard this, the late 60's thru the 70's custom ruled,
The parts on the Motion cars were really not unique to the world of custom although some of the MP cult would like to force people to think the are.
Ed427,
You get almost as long winded as I do and I read your post twice before replying,
I meant post pictures here no biggie, or just send them to me, the13bats@aol.com
You didn't care for his attitude? what gives me a sour taste when is comes to MP isn't anything Mr Motion did but rather his fans, who want to believe and force other to believe the parts used are motion exclusive...and the cars are the end all to be all....they are not.
I will not argue that he made the parts on his cars famous but he didn't invent all or even most of them, to his credit goes the phase hood scoop which was a popular mod in the day to place the 67 bb scoop on the lt-1/bb 68/69 hood, motion filled the dips in the 68/69 scoop, motion also gets credit for the odd firebird-ish stacked tail lights.
John Silva for example invented the Mako, the rear gt clip is Ecklers, the reversed 69 gills are a Brunos/Korky item as are the datsun headlights.
How many people know the first wide bodies and original family truckster vette were from Greenwood?
For as long as I have heard of MP I have heard that Mr Motion is this or that negative thing.
I have dealt with him, I have a receipt for the last Mako clip he sold on a nice "Motion" letterhead,
I found him a basic business fellow. I believe that for many years mr Motion has been pretty much done and over with car stuff, I would have no idea why but that's his business not mine.
I really can't blame him sending C&D letters, Yenko, Ecklers, Greenwood or anyone with a name that makes money getting a bit miffed when some cheddar Richard yahoo wants to cha-ching on their coat tails, if you are going to go sell custom stuff and try to get attention calling it "Motion" then if Mr Motion says stop using his name I do not believe he is out of line and if you do profit with his name then let him wet his beak,
Oddly you are no so removed from Mr Motion, he too now earns a living from selling models. but if you love the phase cars so much build one, full sized.
The problem I see with people calling clones "motion" without documents well, they are just hoping to cheat some fool as are people trying to sell fake anything, are all the 10-11 original phase cars accounted for? if so then that's it game over, or cars motion built for customers, they have some merit, and last customer built cars with real motion sold parts, with all that the "real" ones could be endless,
If you built one out of love of the car I would respect that the most of all.
I find it hard to believe that GM doesn't know how many factory L-88 vettes they sold but okay.
I have read on many forums that for a car to have motion documentation all it takes is $$$ I do not believe this for a second, the reason why, no matter the mans attitude if he wanted to get paid for bogus paperwork he could make a hell of a lot more having a shop build a run of true motion phase cars, he is the only person alive with that right, they would be sought after and high dollar, he could do it would nothing more than phone calls and some paperwork.
I used to hit ecklers back when the yellow family truckster daytona wide body and silver blue turbo where in a little showroom,
when Ralph sold the store there seemed to get hazed with a feeling to me that they were more a pep boys now than vette lovers and specialists.
I will ask my friend who worked for Ralph in the day dating back to Illinois about the gold car, he might have pictures of even worked on it.
What you were saying about other dealers selling "Motion" type cars is not the first time I have heard this, the late 60's thru the 70's custom ruled,
The parts on the Motion cars were really not unique to the world of custom although some of the MP cult would like to force people to think the are.
Ed427,
You get almost as long winded as I do
and I read your post twice before replying,I meant post pictures here no biggie, or just send them to me, the13bats@aol.com
You didn't care for his attitude? what gives me a sour taste when is comes to MP isn't anything Mr Motion did but rather his fans, who want to believe and force other to believe the parts used are motion exclusive...and the cars are the end all to be all....they are not.
I will not argue that he made the parts on his cars famous but he didn't invent all or even most of them, to his credit goes the phase hood scoop which was a popular mod in the day to place the 67 bb scoop on the lt-1/bb 68/69 hood, motion filled the dips in the 68/69 scoop, motion also gets credit for the odd firebird-ish stacked tail lights.
John Silva for example invented the Mako, the rear gt clip is Ecklers, the reversed 69 gills are a Brunos/Korky item as are the datsun headlights.
How many people know the first wide bodies and original family truckster vette were from Greenwood?
For as long as I have heard of MP I have heard that Mr Motion is this or that negative thing.
I have dealt with him, I have a receipt for the last Mako clip he sold on a nice "Motion" letterhead,
I found him a basic business fellow. I believe that for many years mr Motion has been pretty much done and over with car stuff, I would have no idea why but that's his business not mine.
I really can't blame him sending C&D letters, Yenko, Ecklers, Greenwood or anyone with a name that makes money getting a bit miffed when some cheddar Richard yahoo wants to cha-ching on their coat tails,
if you are going to go sell custom stuff and try to get attention calling it "Motion" then if Mr Motion says stop using his name I do not believe he is out of line and if you do profit with his name then let him wet his beak, Oddly you are no so removed from Mr Motion, he too now earns a living from selling models. but if you love the phase cars so much build one, full sized.
The problem I see with people calling clones "motion" without documents well, they are just hoping to cheat some fool as are people trying to sell fake anything, are all the 10-11 original phase cars accounted for? if so then that's it game over, or cars motion built for customers, they have some merit, and last customer built cars with real motion sold parts, with all that the "real" ones could be endless,
If you built one out of love of the car I would respect that the most of all.
I find it hard to believe that GM doesn't know how many factory L-88 vettes they sold but okay.
I have read on many forums that for a car to have motion documentation all it takes is $$$ I do not believe this for a second, the reason why, no matter the mans attitude if he wanted to get paid for bogus paperwork he could make a hell of a lot more having a shop build a run of true motion phase cars, he is the only person alive with that right, they would be sought after and high dollar, he could do it would nothing more than phone calls and some paperwork.
I know he is into models, my friend made some resin cast parts for him. A few years ago Joel was selling new real Motion 69 Camaros if I recall or maybe a motion new gen Camaro. I don't remember but it was something Camaro related.
I have dealt a great deal with trademark and copyright attorneys with regard to small scale miniatures. If I build a motion corvette model I can call it just that. It's covered under intellectual property laws under the Lanham act of 1946. same as if I take a picture of a motion car and sell it. I can say I am selling a picture I took myself of a motion car. It's my picture, automatically copy written. I just can not say its a licensed product and I can not use there logo in selling it. But I can call it a motion car. Its a motion picture! (sorry I couldnt resist) Model cars are sculpture and therefore fall under the same catagory. Joel feels you can not. I don't care what he feels, the law says I can. Furthermore, they are based on a GM car which HE does not have a trademark for. He can not stop someone from making a model of a GM car ( GM really can't either). However, do not confuse the fact that some model companies STILL pay for licensing. Just because they pay to not have a lengthy legal fight does not mean they are obligated to do so.
Joel can be an alright guy, but he thinks he knows more about things outside of car engines then he really does. I have no tolerance for intimidation and he sent me an email a year or 2 ago and I went right back at him. I'm not trying to sell copies of his hoods or anything like that. These are models and are not causing any product confusion with his cars. He has no claim and if he did he would have sued me by now.
I have some nice Greenwood models also.
Yes, these threads bring out the long windedness in me, no doubt!!
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 11,608
Likes: 780
From: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
Ed427,
Text has it's tone of voice lost in the type,
I am sure you know more on laws on copyrights then I do but some times what the law says isn't really the "right" thing.
I do not want you to get the wrong impression what I am going to say but be it a full sized car or car part or a model the simple fact is if the seller has to use something created and made famous by someone else to sell their item for the money they desire then it's Cheddar Richard in my book. ( and in most cases people who do sell this stuff want tall dollars for it, insult to injury )
Pictures a person takes, geez that is a hard one for me, but I guess without thinking so hard my head hurts that pictures are different to other things for me.
I have no idea if MM ( Mr Motion ) is someone you can work with and deal with but just imagine how cool it would be if he gave a nod to your model phase cars, that they became "Motion" certified, as fan of MP I would think that would be a huge flattering kudos to you and your skills, otherwise it just makes it seem like you are far more about turning a buck from a famous custom a fellow invented than the famous custom actually has a place in your heart.
You stated you are NOT selling copies of his hoods, like a hood ( or body parts ) are different,
Lets face it some fellow wants to sell the Phase 3 Motion hood if he advertises it for sale as "custom hood" who will really care, but if he adds "Motion Phase 3 hood" to that description then wow some vette people will just have to have one, if of course his asking price is realistic, as compared to hoods Ecklers or some other fiberglass company sells,
But that fellow is in that same boat, using what MM invented to try to sell his product.
I know there is a lot more to this idea that I don't know or see,
And as I private messaged you I am leaving something out,
Perhaps people have approached MM and been told he would want too much for his share or perhaps he just said "no" then what does the seller do?
I see that the next step if they really want to sell the items is to do it as a replica, a clone a copy or a model whatever name they see fit to give it and if the law says this is okay then so be it. but in my world if the step of talking to MM about it is skipped then I do not blame MM for being upset because he invented it and law or no law it's just not right and I find the seller Cheddar Richard,
before you take any offense I do not mean my labels as a bad damning to hell for all times uber insulting thing just my feeling on it...some of my best friends are Cheddar Richards,
Text has it's tone of voice lost in the type,
I am sure you know more on laws on copyrights then I do but some times what the law says isn't really the "right" thing.
I do not want you to get the wrong impression what I am going to say but be it a full sized car or car part or a model the simple fact is if the seller has to use something created and made famous by someone else to sell their item for the money they desire then it's Cheddar Richard in my book. ( and in most cases people who do sell this stuff want tall dollars for it, insult to injury )
Pictures a person takes, geez that is a hard one for me, but I guess without thinking so hard my head hurts that pictures are different to other things for me.
I have no idea if MM ( Mr Motion ) is someone you can work with and deal with but just imagine how cool it would be if he gave a nod to your model phase cars, that they became "Motion" certified, as fan of MP I would think that would be a huge flattering kudos to you and your skills, otherwise it just makes it seem like you are far more about turning a buck from a famous custom a fellow invented than the famous custom actually has a place in your heart.
You stated you are NOT selling copies of his hoods, like a hood ( or body parts ) are different,
Lets face it some fellow wants to sell the Phase 3 Motion hood if he advertises it for sale as "custom hood" who will really care, but if he adds "Motion Phase 3 hood" to that description then wow some vette people will just have to have one, if of course his asking price is realistic, as compared to hoods Ecklers or some other fiberglass company sells,
But that fellow is in that same boat, using what MM invented to try to sell his product.
I know there is a lot more to this idea that I don't know or see,
And as I private messaged you I am leaving something out,
Perhaps people have approached MM and been told he would want too much for his share or perhaps he just said "no" then what does the seller do?
I see that the next step if they really want to sell the items is to do it as a replica, a clone a copy or a model whatever name they see fit to give it and if the law says this is okay then so be it. but in my world if the step of talking to MM about it is skipped then I do not blame MM for being upset because he invented it and law or no law it's just not right and I find the seller Cheddar Richard,
before you take any offense I do not mean my labels as a bad damning to hell for all times uber insulting thing just my feeling on it...some of my best friends are Cheddar Richards,
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,100
Likes: 800
From: Massapequa Park NY
I understand what you are saying, but motion only ADDED to an existing car, an existing design, he did not create the Corvette so he really can't even claim any trademark unless MOTION gets written permission from GM. do you see where I'm going with this? He is really turning a buck on a GM product.
Sculpture and photos are and always will be protected.
You are very much entitled to your opinion, but he did not invent the Corvette and there is no way I would even consider asking him permission to build a model of a car he only modified. GM has more of a right to ask me to get permission. But when it's a sculpture the artwork is MINE. In fact, if he directly copied my resin model and tried to sell it HE would be in violation of copyright law.
He stuck a stinger type scoop (which he did not design) on top of a C3 big block hood (also something he didn't design) and sold it as his own. Talk about cheddar Richard? Two GM products he didn't have copyrights to and he feels he has a claim to it?
By the way I very rarely build American cars for customers. My clientele is sports racing cars. Some have been famous race Corvette but most are Ferrari, Aston Martin, lemans type race cars etc.
Sculpture by its nature HAS to be of something else. It is representation of something, a car , a person, something. It's the sculptures original artwork. If its a motion car sculpture it no loss of his profits, its not taking his sales of hoods away or preventing him from selling cars.
If an owner of one of his GT cars asks me to build a perfect replica of his car, his property, does the owner need Motions permission. Does he need GMs permission? Do you see the problems? Who owns the shape?
Joel was lucky he was never sued by GM for infringing on there products. Of course it also benefited them but Joel has no claim really to anything.
Sculpture and photos are and always will be protected.
You are very much entitled to your opinion, but he did not invent the Corvette and there is no way I would even consider asking him permission to build a model of a car he only modified. GM has more of a right to ask me to get permission. But when it's a sculpture the artwork is MINE. In fact, if he directly copied my resin model and tried to sell it HE would be in violation of copyright law.
He stuck a stinger type scoop (which he did not design) on top of a C3 big block hood (also something he didn't design) and sold it as his own. Talk about cheddar Richard? Two GM products he didn't have copyrights to and he feels he has a claim to it?
By the way I very rarely build American cars for customers. My clientele is sports racing cars. Some have been famous race Corvette but most are Ferrari, Aston Martin, lemans type race cars etc.
Sculpture by its nature HAS to be of something else. It is representation of something, a car , a person, something. It's the sculptures original artwork. If its a motion car sculpture it no loss of his profits, its not taking his sales of hoods away or preventing him from selling cars.
If an owner of one of his GT cars asks me to build a perfect replica of his car, his property, does the owner need Motions permission. Does he need GMs permission? Do you see the problems? Who owns the shape?
Joel was lucky he was never sued by GM for infringing on there products. Of course it also benefited them but Joel has no claim really to anything.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 11,608
Likes: 780
From: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
I loved this reply from you, you and I are very close on how we feel about the amount of credit due to certain builders of customs,
However, you are not building a model of a bone stock factory Corvette your model in this discussion and situation IS taking it's claim to fame as being a Baldwin Motion Performance Phase 3 corvette and what makes that stock corvette this "special" custom is the parts Mr Motion stuck on the car, I am right on your page with the run down of the Phase scoop in fact it was a popular mod in the day right up there with fire bird tail lights in the Corvette, Hum, he did that too.
IMHO the phase style mod ( I will call it that for now ) would have been so much better looking had the dips been left in the 68-72 hood.
I really believe People love the Motion stuff not so much because it looks so great but because of the legends true or myth that surround the cars,
Anyway,
I see why you feel like you don't need to ask the man anything and I do not miss your disdain for him but I think you need to admit the reason you are even making the model and that it IS a Phase car made special with the combination of parts that Mr Motion placed on said car in that he deserves if nothing else the credit.
However, you are not building a model of a bone stock factory Corvette your model in this discussion and situation IS taking it's claim to fame as being a Baldwin Motion Performance Phase 3 corvette and what makes that stock corvette this "special" custom is the parts Mr Motion stuck on the car, I am right on your page with the run down of the Phase scoop in fact it was a popular mod in the day right up there with fire bird tail lights in the Corvette, Hum, he did that too.
IMHO the phase style mod ( I will call it that for now ) would have been so much better looking had the dips been left in the 68-72 hood.
I really believe People love the Motion stuff not so much because it looks so great but because of the legends true or myth that surround the cars,
Anyway,
I see why you feel like you don't need to ask the man anything and I do not miss your disdain for him but I think you need to admit the reason you are even making the model and that it IS a Phase car made special with the combination of parts that Mr Motion placed on said car in that he deserves if nothing else the credit.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,100
Likes: 800
From: Massapequa Park NY
No doubt I like the cars Liked them before I knew they were Motion cars. I had seen these cars around Long Island way before I even knew what a Motion car was. The first one I had seen was right down my block, a blue phase III, standard body but with the hood.
He deserves a lot of credit. I have tremendous respect for him offering to modify these cars AND give a warranty through Baldwin Chevy. He is a great mechanic and his passion for the cars he built is evident. He gave the people what they wanted.
I will give him all the credit in the world. I just don't need his permission to build a model nor does he deserve any kind of royalties. All he really did, and this is not to say it was so easy, was to just put parts together. He didn't reinvent the wheel. People have been doing this for ages. But he did offer a warranty for some over the top horsepower. That was risky and he made it work. By the virtue of it being invoiced through Baldwin made it a dealer optioned car and put it on a level beyond just a backyard custom and that have it collector status. If he were Enzo Ferrari and made his own cars at least I could understand but even Enzo could not stop me from making Ferrari models. Nor should they be able to.
He gets plenty of credit already. Anybody who sees the models know what they are looking at. He would take another manufacturers valve cover stick a motion emblem on it and sold it as his. Which is fine.
I don't dislike him, just his attitude on certain topics.
I build models of cars I like. Lots of different cars. The Ferrari's I build are far more interesting then the BM cars. I will not give them royalties either.
Here is a pic of the gold GT I built back in 1990. It's 24th scale.
http://www.islandcollectibles.net/images/bmgold.jpg
He deserves a lot of credit. I have tremendous respect for him offering to modify these cars AND give a warranty through Baldwin Chevy. He is a great mechanic and his passion for the cars he built is evident. He gave the people what they wanted.
I will give him all the credit in the world. I just don't need his permission to build a model nor does he deserve any kind of royalties. All he really did, and this is not to say it was so easy, was to just put parts together. He didn't reinvent the wheel. People have been doing this for ages. But he did offer a warranty for some over the top horsepower. That was risky and he made it work. By the virtue of it being invoiced through Baldwin made it a dealer optioned car and put it on a level beyond just a backyard custom and that have it collector status. If he were Enzo Ferrari and made his own cars at least I could understand but even Enzo could not stop me from making Ferrari models. Nor should they be able to.
He gets plenty of credit already. Anybody who sees the models know what they are looking at. He would take another manufacturers valve cover stick a motion emblem on it and sold it as his. Which is fine.
I don't dislike him, just his attitude on certain topics.
I build models of cars I like. Lots of different cars. The Ferrari's I build are far more interesting then the BM cars. I will not give them royalties either.
Here is a pic of the gold GT I built back in 1990. It's 24th scale.
http://www.islandcollectibles.net/images/bmgold.jpg
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,016
Likes: 31
From: Little Egg Harbor N.J.
You guys can go back and forth on this subject all day long it seems but, one thing I have to take issue with is the apparent lack of credit being given to Mr. Rosen and what he created. Yes I did say created; Joel Rosen took an existing platform (Corvette, Camaro; etc.) and improved upon it. He gave the cars outrageous body mods in some cases, a truly distinctive paint scheme (one that is copied to this day on many cars) and a guarantee on how they'd perform. In doing all of these things he created a mystique and a following that continues to this day.
It seems that you are downplaying what he did because he took existing parts and put them together. What do you think Carroll Shelby did? Are his accomplishments diminished because he took an AC Ace and installed a Ford powerplant?
Do I think charging $1,500 to authenticate a suspected Motion car right; not really but, that is Mr. Rosen's choice. I just think we need to give credit where credit is due.
It seems that you are downplaying what he did because he took existing parts and put them together. What do you think Carroll Shelby did? Are his accomplishments diminished because he took an AC Ace and installed a Ford powerplant?
Do I think charging $1,500 to authenticate a suspected Motion car right; not really but, that is Mr. Rosen's choice. I just think we need to give credit where credit is due.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,100
Likes: 800
From: Massapequa Park NY
You guys can go back and forth on this subject all day long it seems but, one thing I have to take issue with is the apparent lack of credit being given to Mr. Rosen and what he created. Yes I did say created; Joel Rosen took an existing platform (Corvette, Camaro; etc.) and improved upon it. He gave the cars outrageous body mods in some cases, a truly distinctive paint scheme (one that is copied to this day on many cars) and a guarantee on how they'd perform. In doing all of these things he created a mystique and a following that continues to this day.
It seems that you are downplaying what he did because he took existing parts and put them together. What do you think Carroll Shelby did? Are his accomplishments diminished because he took an AC Ace and installed a Ford powerplant?
Do I think charging $1,500 to authenticate a suspected Motion car right; not really but, that is Mr. Rosen's choice. I just think we need to give credit where credit is due.
It seems that you are downplaying what he did because he took existing parts and put them together. What do you think Carroll Shelby did? Are his accomplishments diminished because he took an AC Ace and installed a Ford powerplant?
Do I think charging $1,500 to authenticate a suspected Motion car right; not really but, that is Mr. Rosen's choice. I just think we need to give credit where credit is due.
What part of the start of my second and third paragraph did you miss?
It starts with " he deserves a lot of credit"
Third paragraph starts " I will give him all the credit in the world"
What I will not do and neither will GM is give him credit to the trademark rights. Big difference.
Comparing him to Shelby is not even in the same universe. Shelby raced his cars at Lemans. He is WAY out of Rosens league. He also designed a new chassis around the UK AC car. He did more that just add a ford motor. Then he designed the Cobra coupe which had nothing to do with AC. I'm not even getting into what he did with the GT40 which dominated Lemans in 1966 with a 1-2-3 victory and then won again in 67. Then the privteered Gulf cars won in 68 and 69. That compares to a accomplished hot rodder from Long Island?
I gave the guy credit but he is no Shelby. That's just silly.
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Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 40,353
Likes: 787
From: Redondo Beach, California
Look at the position of the front wheels and then look at the position of the steering wheel. I'd guess the steering wheel has been installed in the wrong position. Why is it me that notices these things?
I don't like the color. I do like the rear view mirrors. The stock mirrors are terrible since they are prone to getting corroded and also prone to getting floppy.
I don't like the color. I do like the rear view mirrors. The stock mirrors are terrible since they are prone to getting corroded and also prone to getting floppy.
Last edited by 68/70Vette; Oct 19, 2014 at 10:41 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 11,608
Likes: 780
From: Eustis ( Area 51 Bat Cave ) Fl
Ed427
You are doing to 1996z15 what you do to me you twist thing around and ignore other things we say about you and your motion models, Mr Rosen/Motion dreamed up this combo of parts on a vette not you.
The picture you posted is stunning and you are very talented.
some of what I am going to say is me being arrogant enough to believe I know the answer to this questions,
Are your models made 100% from scratch or do you start with a model kit from a model company?
Do you would you ever sell a Motion model?
1996z15 now I guess the 3 of us can go back and forth all day,
what Ed427 is missing well he isn't missing it he is avoiding it because he profits off Mr Motions products. ( I could be wrong he might post he will never sell one, in that case okay, all this is moot )
The simply fact that if he is selling his motion models for profit and the sales result because it IS a motion model then that is pulling a calvin bumper sticker all over Mr Motion. 1996z15, you didn't say anything I haven't posted over and over,
Of course on a smaller scale Rosen did what Shelby did, but you have to give Ed427 credit the way he can dissect things to make it okay and suit his thoughts and belief that he makes a profit off models built to look like something he didn't dream up Mr motion did.
68/70Vette
I never liked that ugly mold gold either, huggy bear loves it I hear,
With the slop in vette steering the wheel might not be "that" off, lol,
The radar ears on the sail panels just look stupid.
You are doing to 1996z15 what you do to me you twist thing around and ignore other things we say about you and your motion models, Mr Rosen/Motion dreamed up this combo of parts on a vette not you.
The picture you posted is stunning and you are very talented.
some of what I am going to say is me being arrogant enough to believe I know the answer to this questions,
Are your models made 100% from scratch or do you start with a model kit from a model company?
Do you would you ever sell a Motion model?
1996z15 now I guess the 3 of us can go back and forth all day,
what Ed427 is missing well he isn't missing it he is avoiding it
because he profits off Mr Motions products. ( I could be wrong he might post he will never sell one, in that case okay, all this is moot )The simply fact that if he is selling his motion models for profit and the sales result because it IS a motion model then that is pulling a calvin bumper sticker all over Mr Motion. 1996z15, you didn't say anything I haven't posted over and over,
Of course on a smaller scale Rosen did what Shelby did, but you have to give Ed427 credit the way he can dissect things to make it okay and suit his thoughts and belief that he makes a profit off models built to look like something he didn't dream up Mr motion did.
68/70Vette
I never liked that ugly mold gold either, huggy bear loves it I hear,
With the slop in vette steering the wheel might not be "that" off, lol,
The radar ears on the sail panels just look stupid.