I hear this often, but what does the term "numbers matching" mean?

I have a 1978 Pace Car, and have done all I can to keep it original to maintain value. However I have had to replace the fuel pump, PS pump, alternator, and now my water pump is growling - bearing going out I assume. Someone told me I should have not given the worn parts to the auto parts store for the core credit as now my car is no longer "numbers matching". . .

 

Hi F8,
I'll avoid the "bottomless pit" of what numbers matching means.
If you're trying to keep your car original it would have been good to have had the original parts rebuilt/restored, or at least kept all the original parts that you replaced with 'service' parts.
Regards,
Alan

 

However you want to define it. You could say numbers matching drivetrain, for example. It's up to the buyer to determine the definition and find out for themselves how your car stacks up.

None of the parts you mention has the VIN on them, so if you were so inclined you could restore your car to numbers matching status, but it loses "completely original" status.

 

As previously stated, these particular parts don't have numbers on them that are specific to the car. Replacing them is a normal maintenance item.

That said, the person who said you should not have traded in your original cores is correct. It would have been FAAAAAAR preferable to get a "service" alternator and have your original one restored. Same for all the other items.

They are all fixable, but fixing them is not a matter of financial benefit unless you have an otherwise original car.

Point being, if you have "service" parts on your car and your original ones restored as they wear out, you can then make a weekend project of putting all the ORIGINAL parts on your car and attempting to Flight or get a Survivor status on your vehicle. THAT type of judging result certainly WILL directly impact the 'value' of your car.

In the end, it seems, keeping one of these cars eventually means you keep TWO of these cars...the parts on the car and the parts not on the car.

And as a side note: I probably wouldn't continue going to a "parts store" for your parts. It is exceedingly tough to find quality parts at "parts stores". Speed shops are different. Zips/Ecklers/CA and the like are different. But unless you're going for WD-40, I wouldn't shop for parts at AutoZone, PepBoys, or similar. My opinion.

 

Use the search function.....type in Mike Ward.

 

Play nice now, WB. Mike's numbers match.


Have a good New Year.

 

Anymore, "Numbers Matching" pretty much means whatever the user of the phrase, wants it to mean.

Generally, I think most people consider numbers matching to mean a car that has it's born with engine, and possibly it's trans. I can see how a hard core purist, could make the argument that in the strictest sense, numbers matching could mean that the part number of every major component of a car, be the same as original. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with that position, I'm just saying that I can see how someone could take that position.

 

I'm right here!

About 1998 or so, I started keeping a list of all the different definitions I had come across for the term 'numbers matching' in which the poster was absolutely adamant that their definition was 'correct' and all others were absolutely 'wrong'.

I stopped collecting at about qty. 14 clear, different definitions and rejected any slight variations as they numbered in the hundreds.

Here we are in 2014 and it's deja vu all over again. Same stories, new players.

 

Happy New Years Mike! All in fun!




WB

 

I knew it was in fun. Happy New Years to you!

 

there are hundreds of permutations of what people think it means.

To the rookie, and the novice and most of those that are buying their first collector car:

The connotation of numbers matching merely means original engine.

how and if and where the parts are stamped, their casting codes and casting dates, how all the parts fit and look based on how the car left the factory, and of course which parts, all are defined in those hundreds of permutations of what it means to different people.

if numbers matching is used at anytime between a buyer and a seller. then the definition must be discussed to each person's mutual agreement.

I have been on this forum for years and I have not seen that list of all the definitions.. for the sake of entertainment, I would like to see it...

 

The definition for numbers matching is not as nebulous as posters make it out to be...it's just that there does not exist a definitive definition from an authoritative source. Figure that one out.

I see three permutations of numbers matching for C3s:

1. The serial number on the VIN tag matches the engine VIN derivative.

2. The serial number on the VIN tag matches both the engine VIN derivative and the transmission VIN derivative.

3. A third set of numbers that assists with determining authenticity are the date codes and broadcast codes on mechanical components of significance such as radiator, alternator, carburetor, distributor and smog pump (when equipped). This set of codes are expected to reconcile with the date codes associated with the VIN derivatives stamped on the engine and transmission. Date coding begins with the trim tag riveted to the driver’ side inside door jamb. Date codes are expected to fall within six months (generally accepted) prior to body assembly date code (trim tag date code).

You will quickly conclude that #3 requires the technical knowledge of date codes and broadcast codes, their interpretation and then analysis and application. The purist will require a buildsheet to further document broadcast codes reconcile with mechanical components of significance. Therefore, most enthusiasts (and sales people) avoid wading into this cesspool of decoding for the #3 definition (no one posting here of course!).



As an illustration of definition #3, I documented my matching numbers 1978 Corvette with photos and narrative. The link below describes how you can come up with your own definition for numbers matching.

1978 Numbers Matching Corvette

Hope this helps!

 

I don't believe this topic has ever been discussed

 

They were right . ......some parts are really not fixable , most major bolt on components are though and businesses exist to serve these needs. Just ask for recommendations
Having the original parts for numbers sake is nice . But for me , the more important reason to ReTAIN the original parts is because of function and quality . They lasted a heck of a long time to,start with and youl'll get a better device when it is rebuilt with quality components and expert people.

Most GM parts were superior compared to the run of the mill BIG BOX auto junk stores serving the average public.

Items like Water pump, distributor , carb, alternator .....are in many cases best rebuilt by experts ....not in Mexico .

Y

 

I think it's buried away on an old hard drive somewhere, but my two favourites were one guy who had no real definition of his own but insisted that everybody else's was wrong, and maybe the guy that was selling a car insisting that the term actually had a defined legal meaning which was that the VIN on the car had to match the VIN on the title and nothing more. I think he threatened legal action against those that disagreed. I think I also realized just how many people considered 'restamps' to be 'numbers matching'. There was another guy that insisted that as long as the car still had a Chev V8 (never mind stupid numbers), that was close enough.

What I got out of this, which resulted in my long held position, is that it is very very rare to find two people who agree on the definition at the same time at the same place about the same car.

For instance, a buyer meeting a seller- what's the chances they have the same idea in mind? Probably close to zero. Tears usually ensue.

As such- let the term die away. Please.

 

Have the car judged at an NCRS regional. They'll let you know just how much those old parts matter for 'originality'. And then you can have fun going to swap meets looking for the correct ones!

 

I'm curious if Fabric (OP) feels like he has gotten a reasonable answer to his query?

Or is it all and or

 

That's the one place on the planet that you will never never hear the phrase 'numbers matching' spoken!

 

For the majority of car enthusiasts numbers matching means the engine and transmission numbers match the car's VIN. The vast majority of car enthusiasts couldn't care less if their fuel pump, PS pump, alternator, or water pump are not "numbers matching".

 

I was just sure this thread would be more exciting than it has .....