71 birdcage issues
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,168
Likes: 1,668
From: Long Island
You stated that it is a base convertible, due to the rust issue I would be hesitant to take the car on the highway - as there is not much support for the windshield other than the birdcage frame.
If you want to keep it for local low speed around town cruses I would keep it as is until further issues arise.
I understand her feelings and attachment. Safety is important - as stated the cost to repair will be fairly steep. Safety is more important than money.
Another option is to find a body and swap it to your frame and drivetrain if your frame and drivetrain is in very good condition.
If you want to keep it for local low speed around town cruses I would keep it as is until further issues arise.
I understand her feelings and attachment. Safety is important - as stated the cost to repair will be fairly steep. Safety is more important than money.
Another option is to find a body and swap it to your frame and drivetrain if your frame and drivetrain is in very good condition.
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 99
Likes: 2
Your frame appears to have been undercoated at some time.
From what I'm seeing in your pictures, I'd say that frame is in Great shape.
As for the birdcage, There are many used Corvette parts sources out there.
I'd look over in the southwestern states, Arizona, New Mexico, California.
I bought my birdcage local, here in N.C..
I bought my interior out of California just this week.
I hung the nose out of the way.
Although my birdcage is "FRIED", my frame is as solid as a frame gets.
Not undercoated, and only surface rust.
The front of the frame has the usual engine oil etc., leaks stuff, so when I blast that clean, I'm betting it'll look new.
If you decide to attempt this, I'd recommend a couple of books.
"1971 Corvette Assembly Instruction Manual". I have the 72 one.
BRB
From what I'm seeing in your pictures, I'd say that frame is in Great shape.
As for the birdcage, There are many used Corvette parts sources out there.
I'd look over in the southwestern states, Arizona, New Mexico, California.
I bought my birdcage local, here in N.C..
I bought my interior out of California just this week.
I hung the nose out of the way.
Although my birdcage is "FRIED", my frame is as solid as a frame gets.
Not undercoated, and only surface rust.
The front of the frame has the usual engine oil etc., leaks stuff, so when I blast that clean, I'm betting it'll look new.
If you decide to attempt this, I'd recommend a couple of books.
"1971 Corvette Assembly Instruction Manual". I have the 72 one.
BRB
I'm pretty sure we will keep it. I didn't get a chance to take it out this weekend to see what #3 and #4 body mounts look like. I may be able to do that tonight if it is not raining. It is my wife's car and I think she is more attached to it than she is letting on. I also don't want to pay someone 10's of thousands of dollars to fix it, so I'm just hoping #3 and #4 look decent and the car is ok to tool around in.
Thanks
Dean
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 99
Likes: 2
I did pull both panels in the front (driver and passenger). The good looking one in the pics above (the one that looks like it has white mold on it) is the passenger side. I just have to pull the access panels at the back to see what #3 and #4 look like. I'm hoping for good news there, but since the channels are a little gone, I'm not betting any money that they will be solid. If I had to guess, I would guess the passenger side is good and the driver side will be punky.
I also need to get the windshield replaced so I'm hoping that will reveal what is going on in that area.
I agree, this car should be saved. Just trying to balance all of the other projects on the house and yard that need to be done as well. Now if could just win the lottery...
Thanks
Dean
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 99
Likes: 2
Those look pretty good from the angle and distance in the pics you uploaded. It also looks like you have a replacement bottom of the door jamb. That's great. I'm going to look for a camera that I can run up the jamb to see what the rest of it looks like. I think my neighbor has one.
Good luck with those.
Dean
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 99
Likes: 2
You stated that it is a base convertible, due to the rust issue I would be hesitant to take the car on the highway - as there is not much support for the windshield other than the birdcage frame.
If you want to keep it for local low speed around town cruses I would keep it as is until further issues arise.
I understand her feelings and attachment. Safety is important - as stated the cost to repair will be fairly steep. Safety is more important than money.
Another option is to find a body and swap it to your frame and drivetrain if your frame and drivetrain is in very good condition.
If you want to keep it for local low speed around town cruses I would keep it as is until further issues arise.
I understand her feelings and attachment. Safety is important - as stated the cost to repair will be fairly steep. Safety is more important than money.
Another option is to find a body and swap it to your frame and drivetrain if your frame and drivetrain is in very good condition.
My fear with another body is that it is in the same shape as this one. OK, I know a few places to look, but it would still make me pretty nervous. Also, if the body comes off this one, I would want to go through the chassis to make sure everything is sound.
Too many projects and work just seems to get in the way.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 72
From: Seminole, FL
O.K., guys, So I need to ask this question.
I AM "NOT" looking for "ILLEGAL" suggestions
I'm in N.C., and it's a FELONY to touch the VIN (swapping out birdcage).
So, I'm sending my birdcage to GA., where it's LEGAL.
But I 'Heard' something yesterday, which I have to investigate.
A guy told me that N.C. does not accept GA. titles. WTF?
So my question here is...
How does your state handle the repair of birdcages?
Can you quote your state law on this?
I'm looking to build a database for people in my situation.
I AM "NOT" looking for "ILLEGAL" suggestions
I'm in N.C., and it's a FELONY to touch the VIN (swapping out birdcage).
So, I'm sending my birdcage to GA., where it's LEGAL.
But I 'Heard' something yesterday, which I have to investigate.
A guy told me that N.C. does not accept GA. titles. WTF?
So my question here is...
How does your state handle the repair of birdcages?
Can you quote your state law on this?
I'm looking to build a database for people in my situation.
Last edited by ArtGle; May 1, 2017 at 11:00 AM. Reason: add question
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 72
From: Seminole, FL
Dean
Your biggest issue is cost, if you pay somebody to fix this car be prepared to drop upwards of $30,000 plus just for the body repairs and repaint. Given the amount of rust damage you are looking at a complete birdcage replacement which will require every fiberglass panel to be remover from the body.
Lots of man-hours at $75 -$110 per hour labor plus parts.
Dennis
This is the part you need to get started.
Your biggest issue is cost, if you pay somebody to fix this car be prepared to drop upwards of $30,000 plus just for the body repairs and repaint. Given the amount of rust damage you are looking at a complete birdcage replacement which will require every fiberglass panel to be remover from the body.
Lots of man-hours at $75 -$110 per hour labor plus parts.
Dennis
This is the part you need to get started.
Because, if my own repair approaches this kind of money, I'd go this route in a heartbeat.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 72
From: Seminole, FL
Where is the company with those 'green' birdcages for sale?
Dean
Your biggest issue is cost, if you pay somebody to fix this car be prepared to drop upwards of $30,000 plus just for the body repairs and repaint. Given the amount of rust damage you are looking at a complete birdcage replacement which will require every fiberglass panel to be remover from the body.
Lots of man-hours at $75 -$110 per hour labor plus parts.
Dennis
This is the part you need to get started.
Your biggest issue is cost, if you pay somebody to fix this car be prepared to drop upwards of $30,000 plus just for the body repairs and repaint. Given the amount of rust damage you are looking at a complete birdcage replacement which will require every fiberglass panel to be remover from the body.
Lots of man-hours at $75 -$110 per hour labor plus parts.
Dennis
This is the part you need to get started.
Where is this company?
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Race Director
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 14,321
Likes: 8,125
From: Napa Valley California
O.K., guys, So I need to ask this question.
I AM "NOT" looking for "ILLEGAL" suggestions
I'm in N.C., and it's a FELONY to touch the VIN (swapping out birdcage).
So, I'm sending my birdcage to GA., where it's LEGAL.
But I 'Heard' something yesterday, which I have to investigate.
A guy told me that N.C. does not accept GA. titles. WTF?
So my question here is...
How does your state handle the repair of birdcages?
Can you quote your state law on this?
I'm looking to build a database for people in my situation.
I AM "NOT" looking for "ILLEGAL" suggestions
I'm in N.C., and it's a FELONY to touch the VIN (swapping out birdcage).
So, I'm sending my birdcage to GA., where it's LEGAL.
But I 'Heard' something yesterday, which I have to investigate.
A guy told me that N.C. does not accept GA. titles. WTF?
So my question here is...
How does your state handle the repair of birdcages?
Can you quote your state law on this?
I'm looking to build a database for people in my situation.
I would talk with your states motor vehicle department and not go by rumor control. Even in California it is a felony to remove or swap VIN's on a vehicle "with criminal intent", however if you are removing and replacing the part the VIN plate is attached to and keeping the same VIN on the same vehicle and there is no criminal intent, then you are not committing any criminal act. I'm sure you will find there are lawful ways to have a new VIN assigned to a vehicle or swap a VIN plate through your states motor vehicle department.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,458
Likes: 330
From: Indy Indiana
depends on the zealousness of the authority over you......
you never know what the DMV will do, depending on the state you live in. anytime you are removing a vin tag, it gives them a reason.
there are arguments both ways. the bird cage is the central part of the car and has a vin tag. when you are buying a bird cage, you are essentially buying a car with a title and vin tag with it. any car you build is based on the bird cage vin tag. the basis of some of the laws is that you cannot take one VIN tagged part and make it a different VIN tagged part. and when you start swapping VIN tags the best you usually will get is sucessfully sneaking it by the DMV,
worst is car confiscation,
and middle is they assign a new state issued VIN.. which will devalue your car and cause you lots of problems as potential buyers will be asking lots of valid questions which you are ethically compelled to answer.
one is opening up a big can of worms here by deciding to tackle this repair,
there are many mechanical, financial, and technical reasons such a project will fail, but the legal issues and likely devaluation of the car are another hurdle to jump over.
you never know what the DMV will do, depending on the state you live in. anytime you are removing a vin tag, it gives them a reason.
there are arguments both ways. the bird cage is the central part of the car and has a vin tag. when you are buying a bird cage, you are essentially buying a car with a title and vin tag with it. any car you build is based on the bird cage vin tag. the basis of some of the laws is that you cannot take one VIN tagged part and make it a different VIN tagged part. and when you start swapping VIN tags the best you usually will get is sucessfully sneaking it by the DMV,
worst is car confiscation,
and middle is they assign a new state issued VIN.. which will devalue your car and cause you lots of problems as potential buyers will be asking lots of valid questions which you are ethically compelled to answer.
one is opening up a big can of worms here by deciding to tackle this repair,
there are many mechanical, financial, and technical reasons such a project will fail, but the legal issues and likely devaluation of the car are another hurdle to jump over.
Last edited by joewill; May 2, 2017 at 09:38 AM.
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 212
Likes: 29
From: State College Pennsylvania
I believe that the legality of removing and replacing the VIN tag is dependent on the state (and possibly how good your lawyer is). In PA, the law explicitly states that moving the proper VIN tag from the old birdcage to a replacement birdcage FOR REPAIR is legal. The same may not be true for other states.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,729
Likes: 267
From: Austin Texas
Corvette of the Year Winner 2017
2016 C3 of Year Finalist
" so what's the alternative if the birdcage can't be saved/rebuilt/re-used, or?"
... that is called a parts car!
The Federal Vin law leaves each state to define its own interpretation,
for VIN dampering.
generally if you ask, a state they will apply a state VIN # inplace of the original.
(this covers their butt, and gives you a non-orginal VIN# which can hurt vehicle value.)
if you are merely repairing your vehicle and Not stealing and selling hot cars.
it should be acceptable, but i would not go asking at your local DMV.
... that is called a parts car!
The Federal Vin law leaves each state to define its own interpretation,
for VIN dampering.
generally if you ask, a state they will apply a state VIN # inplace of the original.
(this covers their butt, and gives you a non-orginal VIN# which can hurt vehicle value.)
if you are merely repairing your vehicle and Not stealing and selling hot cars.
it should be acceptable, but i would not go asking at your local DMV.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,399
Likes: 1,226
From: Tampa Florida
" so what's the alternative if the birdcage can't be saved/rebuilt/re-used, or?"
... that is called a parts car!
The Federal Vin law leaves each state to define its own interpretation,
for VIN dampering.
generally if you ask, a state they will apply a state VIN # inplace of the original.
(this covers their butt, and gives you a non-orginal VIN# which can hurt vehicle value.)
if you are merely repairing your vehicle and Not stealing and selling hot cars.
it should be acceptable, but i would not go asking at your local DMV.
... that is called a parts car!
The Federal Vin law leaves each state to define its own interpretation,
for VIN dampering.
generally if you ask, a state they will apply a state VIN # inplace of the original.
(this covers their butt, and gives you a non-orginal VIN# which can hurt vehicle value.)
if you are merely repairing your vehicle and Not stealing and selling hot cars.
it should be acceptable, but i would not go asking at your local DMV.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 44,636
Likes: 1,827
From: Huntsville AL
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,458
Likes: 330
From: Indy Indiana
" so what's the alternative if the birdcage can't be saved/rebuilt/re-used, or?"
... that is called a parts car!
The Federal Vin law leaves each state to define its own interpretation,
for VIN dampering.
generally if you ask, a state they will apply a state VIN # inplace of the original.
(this covers their butt, and gives you a non-orginal VIN# which can hurt vehicle value.)
if you are merely repairing your vehicle and Not stealing and selling hot cars.
it should be acceptable, but i would not go asking at your local DMV.
... that is called a parts car!
The Federal Vin law leaves each state to define its own interpretation,
for VIN dampering.
generally if you ask, a state they will apply a state VIN # inplace of the original.
(this covers their butt, and gives you a non-orginal VIN# which can hurt vehicle value.)
if you are merely repairing your vehicle and Not stealing and selling hot cars.
it should be acceptable, but i would not go asking at your local DMV.
But even the junk yard now will not take a car without a vin and a title.
Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 668
Likes: 15
From: Central Fl
AJC
Those look pretty good from the angle and distance in the pics you uploaded. It also looks like you have a replacement bottom of the door jamb. That's great. I'm going to look for a camera that I can run up the jamb to see what the rest of it looks like. I think my neighbor has one.
Good luck with those.
Dean
Those look pretty good from the angle and distance in the pics you uploaded. It also looks like you have a replacement bottom of the door jamb. That's great. I'm going to look for a camera that I can run up the jamb to see what the rest of it looks like. I think my neighbor has one.
Good luck with those.
Dean
yes they are in pretty good shape ...
I have seen and I am looking forward to the repairs!!
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 212
Likes: 29
From: State College Pennsylvania
I just read the VIN fraud section of the Florida DMV, and I certainly wouldn't alter a VIN or commit fraud. It would seem to me that if someone replaced their rusted out un-repairable birdcage with a new or used one, they could carefully R&R their old VIN plate to the new birdcage without anyone knowing. We're only talking about 2 holes, 2 rivets. The interior trim almost covers the rivets.
Florida Statutes: Title XXIII - Chapter 319 - Section 30 - (5)c:
"This chapter does not apply to anyone who removes, possesses, or replaces a manufacturer’s or state-assigned identification number plate, in the course of performing repairs on a vehicle, that require such removal or replacement. If the repair requires replacement of a vehicle part that contains the manufacturer’s or state-assigned identification number plate, the manufacturer’s or state-assigned identification number plate that is assigned to the vehicle being repaired will be installed on the replacement part. The manufacturer’s or state-assigned identification number plate that was removed from this replacement part will be installed on the part that was removed from the vehicle being repaired."
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 14,321
Likes: 8,125
From: Napa Valley California
Laws governing the removal and swapping of VIN plates are in place to assist law enforcement in the prosecution of those who deal in stolen vehicles, stripping vehicles, selling stolen vehicle parts and fraudulently selling vehicles with salvaged major components. Those same laws are in place in the attempt to protect us, the consumer. The intent of the laws are not in place to prevent someone from replacing a birdcage or any other major component of the vehicle they own. Read, know and understand the laws of your state, and I seriously doubt that you would be hunted down and incarcerated for swapping out the birdcage of a vehicle you own. If there is an existing VIN plate on a birdcage you purchase, I would have the VIN run through CLETS by your local law enforcement agency to insure the VIN is clear and not reported stolen and make sure you get a receipt including the name and contact information for the party you purchased it from.