Faster Rat

Bats, the car is not anything more or less than what it is. Collectors with money are not interested in cars with a story. They invest their money in rarity (original drivetrain, paint, even exhaust systems) because as time goes on, that item only becomes more rare...due to increased demand (more buyers in the pool) along with attrition (floods, fires, crashes, modifications, etc.) It is as simple as that.

The13Bats

pigfarmer

Me too and I completely agree. But with that analogy there are a couple of other things that go along with it. One is that some things were produced in such quantity that even being 'as manufactured' still have a low relative value. 91/30 Mosin Nagants come to mind. All C3s are becoming collectible but some more so than others - NOT intending to start a fire with that comment - just making an observation.

Also the mindset of manufacturer plays some role. I'm thinking of K98s. When they were busy stamping serial #s on every last part we were cranking out M1s by the freight car load - mostly made up of parts with lot numbers. Then there's armorers who just had fix or refurbish something who had no concern beyond functionality. We get to sift through what's left for our collections.

As for these old cars, if I found one largely intact and original I'd keep it that way. Be a shame to start mixing stuff up that's been in use for decades.

My early '69 is nearly a half century old and already been subjected to someone else's frame off restoration. I went through every casting number I could find. It has a CE engine that dates right back to when the car itself was made that may well have come to the showroom floor with it. It's got a 68-69 M20 in it but not the one that came with it. Who knows what the story is. I appreciate the fact that most of the bits & pieces date back to the date the car was manufactured and it's 'correct' enough for me. It has value but is no investment. Like an '03 Springfield I like to shoot it's still cool, still works and all the parts look like they belong together.

I looked at a couple of #s matching C3s - one a for-real LT1 'barn find' but passed on them. Cost twice as much and to me, more investment than driver. I enjoy working on mine and don't get the ***-clench I'd get working on something genuinely original and valuable.

An acquaintance has a Mustang that's gone through a frame off total rebuild and refuses to put anything but NOS parts in it. It wasn't a survivor - it had been totaled and sat in a field for years. Spends a fortune to maintain originality - and then since he doesn't work on it himself he shops the work out to the lowest bidder to get it done. Endless problems. Makes my head hurt but it's his thing and if he wants to do that it isn't interfering with my fun at all so have at it.

I have a couple of collector grade firearms that only come out of the safe rarely. I reach past them to grab the CMP M1 that gets used regularly. If I ever need a new barrel I'd probably get a new Criterion for it because I like shooting it. To the original point of this thread - if my '69 ever needs a motor in terms of cost effectiveness and the overall 'originality' of the car I'd get a nice crate motor for it and put the original aside to appease the next owner. Running a V8 with a carb & distributor are still 'correct' enough for me.

Don Rickles

To add to this reasonable debate.....

Another point to an original example (motor or entire car) is for a teaching tool or a learning device for people that are interested in returning a specimen to its original configuration.

A motor that's been "restored" often times is called just that a "Restoration motor". Too many L 88 cars and cars that were seriously raced (blown motors) have these types of motors under their hoods today. The original examples are used to show EXACTLY how it should be. If, of course it's your gig.

The13Bats

Becoming? They really have been but some would like the values to be higher,

C3s were a long run during a time of lots of changes, gm tamed the beast,
A 69 convertible is like a different car compared to an 82,
Hp going from high to anemic,
Chrome bumpers to plastic and while the main body stayed the same things like a rear 68 to 73 bumper compaired to 74 to 79 are very different styles easy for one to be loved and one hated by people,

My fun prediction is 68 to 72s will at some point go way up perhaps not as much as c2s because their were more c3s but they will go up fast and high i just dont know how soon,

73s will hang in a limbo of higher than post lower than pre,
74 75 cool opioned c3s will be next, like bb ac convertibles,
It wont matter hp was down, for example a 74 bb 4 speed convertible, is pretty darn sweet and kind of rare,

Then 76 to 82s will have to be pristine, low miles special options to get the tall stack of toad pelts on the orginal market, they are the target of restro modders.

Restro mods, that a whole other bucket of worms some are hack jobs and some worth many times their stock counter parts, just depends.

mjmike

Does anyone think there is any extra value of a non numbers corvette having the replacement engine from a same year corvette or at very least a genuine corvette engine?

For example my 1972 corvette is non numbers matching, but the replacement engine is from a 1970 corvette. Without looking at the pad one would never even know.

Thoughts.......

Don Rickles

No, a nom is a nom.

Mr D.

Once a NOM always a NOM you can only be original once.

shenango

Originally Posted by pigfarmer
Me too and I completely agree. But with that analogy there are a couple of other things that go along with it. One is that some things were produced in such quantity that even being 'as manufactured' still have a low relative value. 91/30 Mosin Nagants come to mind. All C3s are becoming collectible but some more so than others - NOT intending to start a fire with that comment - just making an observation.

When I found my 75 it was love at first sight. I wasn't concerned with any numbers except for the price. I did a very thorough inspection, looked at all of the 20 year old frame off restoration pictures and asked the man why he was selling it. The car belonged to his Son who was in the Air Force. The young man called his father and told him to sell the Vette because he was reenlisting and wouldn't really need a sports car anymore. Made sense to me so we struck a deal and the rest is history. The L48 is original with some internal hp upgrades to around 275hp The Borg Warner 4 speed as well as the differential are also original to the car. If a poll was taken, the majority of people on this forum would say my L48 is almost worth a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon and my car would be worth a lot more with a stroker, or LS or some other HIPO engine. Maybe the next owner will want to upgrade the power plant but for me it is just fine. For now.

midigike

Big2Bird

Back in the day, no one cared.

Some of us still don't care.

Chasing all over the country, looking for the correct bolts is just not my cup of tea.

Richard454

Exactly!!! When I bought my first vette, a 68 vert- in 1978- I gave more money for it as it had a modded 350 in it versus the smaller 327!


My car (71 originally a LS5 4 speed vert) has a NOM engine- "Not Original Manufacturer!!!

It's number DO match the BMW I took it out of though!!!

I can't find the pic now- but about 10 years ago at a car show there was a 69 BB and on the stamp pad was "MATCHING NUMBERS"- I thought that was hilarious!!!

Jason Staley

Love your engine Richard even if it is NOM.

ed427vette

I agree. Originality does not always mean lots of money. Only that the item, whatever it is, will likely be of higher value to a collector than a non original item.

Supply and demand. Some small block vettes that are all original might still be less expensive than a non original big block. Not always, but possibly.

Value needs two things. Demand and short supply. One without the other will not increase value.

A car that's all original that nobody wants for one reason or another will be of lesser value than a non original car that many people want. And that can happen.

Not many people want a 3 speed manual corvette, even though its very rare, even though it may be the original drive train. In this case originality doesn't really matter. Nor does rarity. Nobody wants a 3-speed.

I've also seen some very bad special order color combinations. That can hurt the resale value significantly.

Any comparison has to be of two similarly equipped items. "Items" can be anything, cars, guns, etc.

ed427vette

Excellent point!

pigfarmer

Yup. Have a look at the demographic in this hobby in general and with Corvettes in particular. Not sure how wide a demand they will be in and I find it hard to speculate about what the collector car market will look like in 30 years. I just watched 'Gran Torino' again and one line I laughed at is something like 'why the hell is everybody interested in my car all of a sudden?'

I have a tough time looking at those weird little vehicles with spoilers that sit an inch off the highway and strange little cubes I see in traffic but maybe one day one of the little kids running around our neighborhood now will be pulling back a tarp and revealing one to his kid .... who will have the appropriate goggle eyes look on his face at discovering a mint 2013 P.O.S. The youngest member of my family is 13 and he thinks the 'vette is cool but looks at it like a grandfather clock or something.

I'd like to rephrase - ALL C3s are collectible.Chrome, rubber, NOM or no.

leadfoot4

Along that line, there's a lengthy discussion in the 'Transaction Feedback' section of this website, that originally began in the C-7 discussion section. The discussion is about a brand new C-7, that had it's engine changed before the initial purchaser bought the car. He found out about this a short time later, and was LIVID that the dealer did not disclose this major repair, prior to him purchasing the car. It's an interesting read, to say the least......

fake

Twenty years ago you could not find a original . I t took months just to find a C3 with a 4 speed and a L-82 . I still have mine! Todays prices for the C2 are crazy,but in 1989 a 67 427 was twenty grand and a new 79 was 10 grand. Every one wanted the new one. I could not afford either back then now i can not afford the town tax.

BBCorv70

That's the strange part. Were there few originals back then or was originality something which wasn't thought to be valuable, wasn't mentioned when advertising? If there were truly few originals 20 years ago, why are there so many more today?

BBCorv70

Partly depends on the owners goals. If NCRS judging is being considered, a reasonable date code and correct casting number makes a huge difference in judging points. The actual numbers have only a minor effect on score despite some who claim the importance of numbers is driven by the NCRS.

Outside of judging or shooting for top market prices at resale, most of the general auto enthusiasts I know really don't care other than being aware it's often hyped for corvettes. The car is most often evaluated overall, condition, options, etc.

If we're talking about joining the collectible club, it is probably the most important attribute of all. The block being original is thought to be true of a smaller group or at least better cared for, more rare to have survived this long without being swapped.