Nowhere Man

hope you don't like your cam. reading is fundamental that is not the API rating your engine and cam require

C6_Racer_X

Some of the Valvoline Racing oils still have a reasonable amount of ZDDP in them, but a lot of the "VR-1" "racing" oils are now lower zinc. I like to see 1200ppm Zinc in my oil analysis after the oil has been in use for 3,000 miles. I think even the "not for use on public roads" or "off road use only" Valvoline racing oils are 1200ppm out of the bottle, and are marginal for flat tappet cams.
That's a poor choice for a flat tappet cam. From the link posted above to Mobil 1 data sheets, all of the 10W30 oils have 900ppm of zinc and are IMO inadequate for flat tappets. I've replaced a lot of camshafts with one or more lobes wiped flat in the past few years, and all of them were in engines that the owners changed the oil at the proper service interval.

From that Mobile 1 data sheet, the only oil from Mobil 1 that I'd even consider (in a pinch) for an engine with flat tappets would be the 15W50 and the Turbo Diesel Truck formula 5W40. Both of those are 1300ppm zinc, and if that was the only thing available, I'd consider it for a single oil change.

I mentioned that I use PennGrade 1 in my older engines with flat tappets (including Mercedes Benz and Audi engines from the 1980s). I actually had to replace camshafts on one of my MB V8 engines (M117) because I didn't notice that Valvoline Racing VR1 oils I was getting from the local sources were lower zinc than they used to be. I wiped two lobes off of one cam and one lobe on the other bank. That engine had oil changes ever 2500 to 3000 miles using VR1 "Racing" oil that said "high zinc" on the bottle.

Unless your adding an additive with ZDDP (ZDP), you need an oil with 1500ppm or more of zinc for flat tappets. Send a sample of your old oil in when you change it for a lab report. If it comes back under 1200ppm when you change it, you're running a risk of camshaft damage. That's not just my opinion, it's my actual experience.

Nowhere Man

C6 Racer X I gave him the short correct info to buy as I gave him the API ratting he needed. I am not sure how that is hard to understand.

Vette5311

shaark92

I just bought a case of Amsoil 20w-50 ZROD for my original '71 ... 350. As you mentioned, MUCH more summer weather driving ... besides, here in Central Texas ... even winter time doesn't often get below 20 degrees to make the heavier oil's flow characteristics a significant issue. If it's that cold, I'm in the truck anyway.

It'll go in the engine today.

Richard Cooper

Yes, I added a bottle of Rislone Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc, 11oz.

Nowhere Man

C6_Racer_X

The truth is, for older engines, especially with flat tappets and "slider cams", you really want an oil that's API SJ and you want to avoid the newer specs. Ever since SJ, the maximum zinc level has been reduced, and SN specifies a maximum that's a third less than it was in SJ.
Not for a C3 Corvette engine. Not for any engine with flat tappets, actually.

It's not the zinc that is the problem, it's the phosphorous. That's the "P" in ZDP (or ZDDP if you prefer). Posphorous/phosphates are bad for catalytic converters. The cats in the C3's are huge by today's standards and can handle the ZDP levels (1200ppm to 1500ppm) that were common in motor oils available when these cars were new. Newer catalysts, even replacement cats for older cars, have much smaller catalyst sections. The catalyst is more efficient today than it was when these cars were new, but the smaller size means that phosphate damage occurs much quicker from lower levels of phosphorous in the exhaust stream. Newer cats fail fairly quickly if the engine is burning oil.

In an engine with flat tappets, the ZDP is a wear reducing additive. Without enough ZDP, the camshaft will wear excessively, and eventually it will fail, with one or more of the lobes wiped nearly flat. Over the past ten years or so, I've seen dozens of destroyed camshafts on cars that had regular oil changes. I've even wiped a couple of cams out myself because I wasn't paying attention to the spec sheets for the motor oils I was using. I didn't notice that the ZDP (zinc) levels were falling off a lot in those oils.

If you've upgraded to a roller cam, you can use the newer oils with no worries, but if you're running flat tappets and a "slider camshaft," you need to select your motor oil very carefully. Those flat tappets and cams need more zinc than is allowed in the current API motor oil specifications. You either need an "off road only" racing oil for these engines, or you need to use an additive to get more ZDP into the oil. I like PennGrade 1 (Brad Penn), but there are other racing oils which are also high in ZDP. If I wanted a synthetic oil that was more widely available in stores, I might look at the Mobil 1 15W50 or the Turbodiesel Truck formula 5W40, but I consider those to be marginal at best. The truth is, Amazon is a godsend for people still driving older engines. You don't need a local source for "racing oil" any more, you can order it online and have it at your door in a day or two.

I also run oil analysis tests much more regularly now on my older engines, and I look for 1200ppm zinc on my reports. If I see less than that at the end of the service life of the oil, I worry about camshaft damage. Mercedes Benz (and Audi/VW) camshafts are outrageously expensive new, and the ones in the parts yards now are likely the reason the car was scrapped.

Vette5311

Richard Cooper

OK, Ok, since I did not put in the synthetic oil yet, I brought it back and got 5 quarts of Pennzoil 10W-30 conventional oil like I have been using for the past 21 years! Put it in and added the zinc, done! Thanks everyone.

C6_Racer_X

The Penngrade one oils start at 1500ppm or higher. That's what I'm using lately (after wiping out both cams on a MB M117 5.6L OHC engine using Valvoline VR-1 "high zinc" and not noticing they droppped the zinc levels in it significantly).

I'll add a zinc additive after replacing camshaft(s) or other major components for the "break in" period. And if for some reason I have to use oil with less zinc, I'll supplement with an additive.

I've put over 70K miles on the new cams in that MB using PennGrade One (Brad Penn) and it's still running great.

FINWOLF

IM running the Valvoline VR-1 "high zinc" SAE 30 it says exceeds API service SL are you saying the zinc levels are not enough now in that. I should add the additive. Just want to make sure I'm reading this right. I use to run regular oil with the zinc additive but for the last
2 years I went to VR1 because it was all in one. did I make a mistake.

C6_Racer_X

I can only relate my own experiences. On our 560SEL, and on one other 560SEC that I take care of, we've had camshaft failures using the VR-1 racing oil. A few years ago (2012 or so?), Valvoline started using synthetic base oils in the VR-1 20W50, and went from API SJ to SL. I think that's when the Zinc levels dropped. The bottle still says "High Zinc" but it's not as high as it used to be, and it's apparently not high enough for slider cams. Our cams failed in 2014.

I used to have a few extra camshaft sets for M117's because it's a common failure with those engines with the "wrong" oil is used (not enough ZDP). At one point I had 6 sets of loose cams, plus a couple of sets of spare heads. I'm completely out of spares now, and when I see one in the parts yards, I pull the covers and I almost always find damaged cams these days.

At least with Chevy engines, a replacement camshaft and lifters isn't outrageously expensive. And you have the option to upgrade to roller lifters and dozens of choices for "performance" camshafts. A pair of aftermarket (stock grind) cams for the MB is over $500, and genuine MB original parts list for over $1,000, just for the bump sticks. Add in everything else that gets damaged from the extra metal floating around inside the engine and it's usually a "total loss" for the vehicle in the MB.

Bikespace

I'll bite. What additive would you use? Cam-Shield? Something else?

C6_Racer_X

I've used the Redline "Engine Break-In Additive" before without any issues. I'm not familiar with Cam-Shield. There are other additives which provide supplemental ZDDP. Some are marketed as "break in" additives. Others are marketed for "hot rods," "classics" and "high performance engines."

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/f...RO_INFO(1).pdf

BTW, Redline Racing Oils also are very high in zinc. All of the Redline Racing oils are over 2000 PPM if I remember correctly. Those oils are expensive, though. Even more expensive than the PennGrade One oils.

EDIT. Always get an additive, or an oil with a real data sheet/specification sheet available online. Know what you're putting in your crankcase. I also like to look at Safety Data Sheets (SDS, formerly known as MSDS) to see what's in the bottle/can.

Vette5311

Bikespace

Thanks! I use Redline in my diffs and MT. I'll give that a try. I strongly agree that having the contents spelled out is critical. The 2oz bottles of ZDDP on Amazon do not do this, and cost $25- for one treatment of who knows what.

FINWOLF

do you think that is the same with all the VR1 even the SAE 30

Vette5311

Kerz