Hi all,

almost down to the last of my teething issues..

car won't turn over when hot...

research on this good forum suggests it's because the starter motor is getting cooked by the headers which sit remarkably close to it, combined with high latent resistance from 50 year old cables and poor earth..

which I can buy.. the earth is old, and the cable has a join in it, which is less than ideal. The starter also looks past it's best.

so.. my problem... identifying the right starter!!

existing pic attached.. the car is a big block into m20.




looking on rockauto, it's not that clear which ones are diagonal bolt type vs straight? And will a 3 bolt fit? (The hole does seem to be in the block?)

many thanks for thoughts?

 

The rebuilders number for that starter is a 3510. the staggered bolt pattern is for the larger diameter flywheel. And you want the larger-diameter armature and field housing. Or better yet by the newer smaller permanent magnet starters. They're also a lot lighter and a lot easier to hold up while you're bolting them in. You get more distance from the headers. in the permanent magnets are so affected by the heat. But your main issue his those lousy contacts and the tired old starter.

 

Dave,
You need the one for the larger diameter 168 tooth flywheel as you have the non-inline bolt pattern. If you look at the Delco remanufactured staters on the Rock Auto web site, they actually have multiple pictures of each Delco starter which will allow you to match up the nose cone to what you have now. Pull yours off and match it. It should be the one for manual transmission, big block except the very high HP big block (that actually uses a smaller clutch).

There are buttons on the main picture you push to see the multiple alternate views.

 

Thanks guys..

seen some references to heat shielding also.. worthwhile or not?

I've got a roll of exhaust wrap floating around somewhere... I could wrap the starter up properly before installation?

 

Old guy chiming in....feel honored that you are dealing with the exact same problems that ZORA delt with after his sickness and return to Chevrolet in the early gestation of the C-3. !!!

Yup BB's run hot.

1.There is a chrome insulation shield you can put over your starter...big help.
2. Yes, a new starter will help....especially a gear reduction unit with permanent magnets (Zora did not have that option).
3. Wrapping the lower header and heat stove in heat rejection wrap will help also...figure Jeggs/ Summit for that.
4. Adjusting and shimming the starter will give the best results. (if applicable)
5. Renewing the chassis ground is worth the time.
6. When applicable pop the hood to let the heat out.
7. For a while I carried a 'windex' spray bottle with water in it to spray down the starter when I couldn't wait for 20 lbs of metal to cool down!
8. I carry a 14,000 AMP/Hour jump pack in the luggage compt....it's about the size of 4 cigarrete packs....that 'BOOSTS' the battery a treat. (band aid)

You get to meet the nicest people when your starter craps out.

Unkahal

 

if you can jump the battery and your car starts when hot, then your cables and ground connections are fine... you just proved that they can pass the amps.
a hot engine and hot starter just take lots more amps to spin the engine. get you a new thousand cranking amp battery.. solves most issues..

also, if you can't find the right starter with staggered bolts, then buy you a standard one and swap your old starter nose into it..

 

Funny you mention that - I struggle to jump the car at ANY time - let alone hot....I've previously put that down to the cheap jumper cables that are hanging in my garage (which; thinking about it, have successfully jumped a high compression diesel V6 - so maybe they're not the problem)

Last time this happened to me in public, I was at an exhaust shop - so had plenty of help at hand... we couldn't jump the car from linking to the battery, but ended up successfully starting it putting voltage through at the solenoid. (this might get me shot - but I've got a ford style solenoid on the inner wheel arch by the wiper door vacuum actuator - with only a hot lead running to starter)

I've previously replaced both the solenoid and the lead between the solenoid and the starter as I had a rather spectacular meltdown at one point -with lots of smoke.. (solenoid dead and lead fused to it)

putting the bits together I'm thinking a) the starter is definitely past it's best - and should be replaced - and in doing so, while i'm there, I might as well try to heat shield it as best I can and to replace the earth cable as a matter of habit.. also b) that I should try to improve the connectivity between the battery and the solenoid - which I understand to be a terrible job given the routing of the cable!

any other suggestions? (Btw; thanks for the suggestion on the windex bottle - I've now got one in the car )

 

I like the Ford relay mod and use it on my cars that have a hot start problem but only run the purple wire signal current through them. An electronic version of the "screwdriver across the starter terminals". Original Purple wire to energize the Ford relay and a pair of new thin gage wires from fat hot 12V starter lug up to the fat Ford relay terminal and back down from other fat Ford relay terminal to the tiny "S" terminal on the starter. Lots of hate and shame here for this mod but.... my car ALWAYS starts.

Sounds like you need to check all the fat cables and connections. Replace anything that looks like junk. Then see what the starter you have can do. Maybe wrap the headers by the starter if new clean cables and connections does not do the trick first.

 

 

Most of the issues are wiring related, they get brittle and have high resistance when old. I upgrade the batt cables and change out the old wiring.

 

Soo.. new starter arrives... and does not fit.. which I subsequently identify to be because the nose is different..

with the help of YouTube, I *think* I managed to swap it over.. I say *think* because of what comes next...

I then put it back in... and do a test crank over.. it cranks once or twice, then starts to short.. I try again.. it just starts to short (presume thats the crackling noise?).

I leave it for a bit, and try again.. once again.. it cranks once or twice and starts to short.

any ideas? Guessing maybe I did something wrong changing over the nose?

 

My thoughts:

1) What you did to "swap over" the nose to the new starter has a problem in there somewhere.

2) Unless the motor brushes were worn-out on your original starter, your "hot start" problem likely has nothing to do with the starter.

3) Most likely fault is a missing or defective starter/engine ground wire running from right-front frame to right-side motor mount & front starter hanger. It could be the wire is 'toast' inside the insulation; it could be dirty connections; you might not have one.

In general, starter motors don't really care about heat. It is mounted right next to the exhaust downpipe. If heat was a problem for the starter, we would ALL have starting problems.

 

so... with a bit of fiddling the starter now appears to be working.. better than the old one, which was/is pretty worn.. but I have not driven it anywhere yet to see if it has problems.

on the earth front - there is no earth running directly to the starter, albeit the block has what looks to be a decent earth that does look to be 'recent' - as in, fitted in the last 20 years!

I presume that an earth should attach to the bolt that runs all the way through the starter body?

 

on C3 you must have battery cable size ground going to the block, or starter area, from the frame.

 

 

The "Fix" was a new high heat solenoid. You can still find them on ebay for $100 if you like the stock appearance, They have a BROWN cap versus black.
The "Oklahoma fix" is the Ford remote solenoid.
The modern fix is a good mini starter that does NOT have the plastic sun gear.

 

Interesting to see the "Oklahoma" Ford relay used in the diagram. Seems to be a lot of hate for that mod here.

Some Heavy Duty application GM starters have relays added to the starter assembly from the factory.

 

Now, a heat problem is the starter solenoid is much more likely than with the starter, itself. I have had solenoid failures, but never a "hot start" issue. But, with an aging solenoid, perhaps.

Based on what the OP reported, electrical ground to the starter is definitely a possibility. Direct ground should be via the frame,, thru the AWG #2 grounding wire to the motor mount bolt (which also holds the [metal] front starter bracket), and thru the starter casing. Without that grounding wire, you WILL have hot start problems.