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Question about NCRS judging and a altered Vin tag

 
Old 06-07-2019, 08:40 PM
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general ike
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Default Question about NCRS judging and a altered Vin tag

Hello all I have been mulling this over ever since this car sold on Ebay a few weeks ago. The car had been NCRS judged. The interesting thing, at least to me, is that the car's Vin tag on the pillar appears to have been removed and is now held down with standard round rivets not the star ones that I think should be there. Do I have this right?Also The numbers are almost cut off, they are so close to the edge. I have seen something similar but never that bad.

The NCRS report says nothing about this. Can anyone in the know explain why? I find it interesting that it would not be a important issue especially to the NCRS. I know that judging is not necessarily there evaluate a car for a value but? Anyone?

Thanks, as a always greatly appreciated!!! Ike

P.S.; I am the one that blurred out part of the Vin. No point in upsetting anyone!!


Last edited by general ike; 06-07-2019 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 06-07-2019, 11:54 PM
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7T1vette
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My mother told me that if I couldn't say anything nice about something, I just shouldn't say anything at all....
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:42 AM
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540 vette
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That looks like a stolen/recovery vin.
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:47 AM
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I would hope the owner has a very good story to tell and photo documentation to go with it. Otherwise buyer beware. But as far as NCRS points values?

I am in a very similar situation as you can see below. I must remove the VIN to repair the windshield frame. Will I get into any legal issues? Devaluation issues? (It will never be NCRS too many parts missing like OEM engine.) But it is a 72 BB car. Should I just photo-document the heck out of what I am doing? Surely someone has had to do this before, for legitimate rust issues like mine.

This is my single biggest concern with the car. Not the rust repair itself, but the ramifications of R&R'ing the VIN tag.
Comments? Concerns?

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Old 06-08-2019, 08:33 AM
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the tag too me looks right and proper...i dont think its a fake or stolen recovery tag....my guess is, that the PO somewhere down the line prob had to do the same thing as 1322 has too do and did not have the proper star rivets too replace the oem ones... it is common when these cars loose a pillar to rust.....JMHO...troy
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:10 AM
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20round I agree with you in that regards. My question was more in the line of why did the NCRS judging not deduct any points for that?

Leigh sorry for the short answer but yes to all your questions. I would do some research especially in the state you are in as to how you can legally tackle such an issue. All kinds of issues when you remove a vin from a car so best to go carefully.

I wonder if there is a way to cut the vin tag and the rivers out and preserve them then somehow bond it to the new pillar??
Good luck and let us know what you find out. Ike

Last edited by general ike; 06-08-2019 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:20 AM
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I researched the VIN issue a little bit, and will do more starting next week when I go on summer break (car time).
The trooper at NJ DMV did not know.
Another trooper at the NJ State Police barracks said the VIN was not stolen so if I document it carefully I should be good to go.
He suggested and I plan on going to the inspection station for homebuilt / rebuilt salvage cars and get their advice as well.
If I need to have them inspect it before cutting, I would rather do it that way.
The absolute very last thing I want to have happen, and need to avoid, is a state-assigned VIN number.
BTW I was able to find replacement Star rivits on -line. They're not perfect but they look pretty good.
Hopefully it will just be another page in my restoration book.
I also have a complete windshield frame here from a Calif. member.
Purists take note, it surprisingly was never painted on the inside of the frame, and yet it is still bare metal with nary a speck of rust on it! Different weather out there for sure.
By this time next month I should be slicing & dicing, cutting & fitting it.

However on the NCRS comments, I too am surprised there was no deduction for such an obvious repair/replacement/alteration.

Last edited by leigh1322; 06-08-2019 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 12:26 PM
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If you go the 'home built' route, the BMV will issue an additional tag which must be attached to the car. That tag will have the same effect on the value of your car as a "SALVAGE" entry into the vehicle's title. My suggestion is that you document the heck out of your work and have the BMV witness the legitimacy of the car at the start of that process.

Find a way to NOT alter or remove the VIN from that portion of the window frame. That may mean you need to clean, POR, and add support under that tag to make it solid. Then, do whatever is needed to the rest of the windshield frame to recover it. I would think if you only saved some of the metal the VIN is attached to and grafted it to another windshield frame (if yours is totally rotten), that could still pass muster. At least you could run that idea by the BMV folks to see if they would accept that approach "as is" without reclassifying the vehicle.
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Old 06-08-2019, 12:32 PM
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Police are not the last word on stolen cars. They only go back so far.
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Old 06-08-2019, 12:56 PM
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You can actually buy the "proper " rivets on fleabay and those are certainly not them. Just input "rosette rivets". I think that's what I would do if I ever have to do a W/S post rust repair. Rules about attaching the original vin back on the original car where it belongs are just plain stupid.
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Old 06-08-2019, 01:14 PM
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Default My 2 cents;

Originally Posted by leigh1322 View Post
I would hope the owner has a very good story to tell and photo documentation to go with it. Otherwise buyer beware. But as far as NCRS points values?

I am in a very similar situation as you can see below. I must remove the VIN to repair the windshield frame. Will I get into any legal issues? Devaluation issues? (It will never be NCRS too many parts missing like OEM engine.) But it is a 72 BB car. Should I just photo-document the heck out of what I am doing? Surely someone has had to do this before, for legitimate rust issues like mine.

This is my single biggest concern with the car. Not the rust repair itself, but the ramifications of R&R'ing the VIN tag.
Comments? Concerns?


I have had to repair windshield frames in other places.

If I had to do this job in this location, I would try to razor blade, thin cut the windshield post vin tag from underneath and then just super glue the tag with original rivets back on. Less said the better. I mean really, there is absolutely no illegal intent here.

NCRS judge likely just missed the rivets.

Last edited by 20mercury; 06-08-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 20mercury View Post
I have had to repair windshield frames in other places.

If I had to do this job in this location, I would try to razor blade, thin cut the windshield post vin tag from underneath and then just super glue the tag with original rivets back on. Less said the better. I mean really, there is absolutely no illegal intent here.

NCRS judge likely just missed the rivets.
Do we know anything about the NCRS judging? How do we know it didnít receive a deduct?
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:19 PM
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Leigh I would not go by what a trooper says. I would go right to DMV and tell them your intent and see what they say. Ask them to show you were in the rules it falls under. Hopefully later it does not come back to you. So if the rivets exist then it should not be too difficult to make it look close to correct. Now just time to see what the state wants.

They are quick to issue you a new vin tag number despite the fact it decreases the value of your car. I have just a situation with a Trans Am I have owned for 35 yrs and it was stolen and a new vin assigned 33 yrs ago. They refuse to allow me to put on the correct vin even though it was mine and I can prove itís original vin number. They just donít care that it effects itís value.

With regards to the NCRS report I have it so no points were deducted. Strange maybe itís as simple as it was missed. But not do I see a place weíre it would come into play. Thatís why I was hoping someone with more knowledge as to how the judging is done would comment.

Thanks all ike
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Old 06-08-2019, 05:01 PM
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leigh,
I have done this same repair to a few Corvettes. Welded in the new A pillar, purchased the correct rivets and re-installed the tag. All legit and the results were perfect. For all I know those cars belong to members on this forum today. What I did not do was get the police or the DMV involved at any stage. I did not advertise that I'd done these repairs. That would just be inviting problems. There are hundreds of Corvettes out there that have had the same A pillar repairs done without "reporting" to anyone. I would not photo-log the process either, unless you plan to do a very poor welding/riveting job.
The car is yours, your're making an honest and necessary repair. Why go looking for trouble?
Greg

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Old 06-08-2019, 10:00 PM
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Leigh,
If you can reach the back of the rivet through the hole using a Dremel, try to remove and save the 1 rivet nearest the pillar hole you need to repair without damaging the visible portion of the rivet. Then, carefully rotate the VIN tag 180 degrees to perform the pillar repair. Use epoxy or JB Weld to reattach the original rivet.
Good luck.
Joe
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Old 06-08-2019, 10:26 PM
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The rivets exist. An example is below and there are many more. If somebody told me that the original vin tag that came with my original car is no longer legal on the car I wouldn't even bother talking. There is crazy and there is stupid but you rarely find the two together....

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/ORIGINAL-1-8...9ZVm47&vxp=mtr

Last edited by CanadaGrant; 06-08-2019 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 10:31 PM
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Who, exactly is going to look or care? You take it off, repair the damage, put it back on with the reasonable looking rivets and exactly how is this going to be proven? This isn't a murder case, NJ CIS is not going to show up with a van full of non-existent forensic equipment just prove you reattached the VIN tag from your old car back onto your old car. You guys worry too much.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:13 PM
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Well ďloose lips sink shipsĒ. Plan B just do it as Greg and Nike have suggested.

In the end as long as you do it right, no one will care other than you!!!

Ike.

Last edited by general ike; 06-08-2019 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 06-09-2019, 02:28 PM
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never ask permission or offer extra info to the DMV. you might get lucky and get a rookie inspector who will not know and let it go. or worst case, if you go deep enough into their books, they will error on the side of caution and confiscate the car, making you prove its legitimacy months later.
depends on how zealous they are..

also... just adjust that inner trim piece to cover your rivets. simple as that. might be what was done to bypass the issue from the ncrs judges.
my car's trim piece totally covers my rivets and I can't see them unless I remove the trim piece.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by joewill View Post
...adjust that inner trim piece to cover your rivets...
I agree. The windshield post trim is supposed to cover the rivets.
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