Feedback on Corvette Mike?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 805
Likes: 260
For many people real paperwork is everything. Why? Because forgery with real cars is rampant.
If you are buying original, unrestored Survivor type cars, owner provenance is extremely important. GM documentation is extremely important and impacts price. At least for me and the people that look at these cars the way I do. Damage and repairs are a different issue. I look for all types of possible repairs, some that are disclosed to me (I like to see HOW the repair was done) and of course the damage that was not disclosed. While the car will “speak” for itself to a degree, many times you can not see everything it has to say immediately.
I see faked trim tags on THIS very forum fairly often. I can’t always say something because it’s considered interference in a sale. But if it comes up I will put my 2 cents in. And when I do see them I enter them into my database. It’s getting pretty big. When the cars come up again and anyone ASKS for info, I’ll tell them. So even if the fake tag makers get better, I’ll have the info saved. Same with fake paperwork. I keep info of everything now. Internet is a good thing in this regard.
Anyone can claim there 67/68/69 corvette is an original L88. Without something like good paperwork of some kind would you just take there word for it? There are plenty of talented car builders that could fake a decent build and it would be very accurate. I like to share what I know about these cars on this forum but there are a few things I and other experienced C3 affectionados don’t bring up because we don’t want people to use that info to build better fake cars. Not everything is in the Judges manuals.
Paperwork is not important to you. That’s fine. Some people simply do not care about it. Many do not care about originality. In many cases I don’t care about original cars. I like customs just as much. Paperwork and originality depends on WHAT I think I’m buying.
You asked and I quote “Why do so many people car about paperwork”. Hopefully this explained why. Regardless if you understand that or not, that is the reason. In your opinion it means absolutely nothing. That may be true for you but not everyone. It’s a fact that it can verify if a car came with side pipes in 1969 or not. If can verify if a car was built as an L88. Can paperwork be faked? Yes. Will it fool me? Unlikely, but not impossible. Then there’s restamped drivetrains. I’m sure I can be fooled with that. I’ve seen some great restamps. Easier for me to spot fake paper then a well done, well researched stamping.
If you are buying original, unrestored Survivor type cars, owner provenance is extremely important. GM documentation is extremely important and impacts price. At least for me and the people that look at these cars the way I do. Damage and repairs are a different issue. I look for all types of possible repairs, some that are disclosed to me (I like to see HOW the repair was done) and of course the damage that was not disclosed. While the car will “speak” for itself to a degree, many times you can not see everything it has to say immediately.
I see faked trim tags on THIS very forum fairly often. I can’t always say something because it’s considered interference in a sale. But if it comes up I will put my 2 cents in. And when I do see them I enter them into my database. It’s getting pretty big. When the cars come up again and anyone ASKS for info, I’ll tell them. So even if the fake tag makers get better, I’ll have the info saved. Same with fake paperwork. I keep info of everything now. Internet is a good thing in this regard.
Anyone can claim there 67/68/69 corvette is an original L88. Without something like good paperwork of some kind would you just take there word for it? There are plenty of talented car builders that could fake a decent build and it would be very accurate. I like to share what I know about these cars on this forum but there are a few things I and other experienced C3 affectionados don’t bring up because we don’t want people to use that info to build better fake cars. Not everything is in the Judges manuals.
Paperwork is not important to you. That’s fine. Some people simply do not care about it. Many do not care about originality. In many cases I don’t care about original cars. I like customs just as much. Paperwork and originality depends on WHAT I think I’m buying.
You asked and I quote “Why do so many people car about paperwork”. Hopefully this explained why. Regardless if you understand that or not, that is the reason. In your opinion it means absolutely nothing. That may be true for you but not everyone. It’s a fact that it can verify if a car came with side pipes in 1969 or not. If can verify if a car was built as an L88. Can paperwork be faked? Yes. Will it fool me? Unlikely, but not impossible. Then there’s restamped drivetrains. I’m sure I can be fooled with that. I’ve seen some great restamps. Easier for me to spot fake paper then a well done, well researched stamping.
Car dose NOT speak for itself. It speaks for what someone made it say. Only way to know for sure if what it is now is what it left the factory as is real paperwork and trim tag. Yes you can tell fake paperwork from fake. My general thought on Corvette dealers is that most old time dealers wont lie to you but will not offer to tell you everything they know about the car unless you ask. They are in bussiness to sell Corvettes not judge the Corvette &tell you whats wrong with it like NCRS. I have found private owners will lie like a rug to sell.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,100
Likes: 801
From: Massapequa Park NY
not correct .. the car will speak for itself means , if the owner claims it is all original , #s matching , never hit , low miles, etc etc …. You can check many things to verify if the owner is telling the truth without paperwork. Example - CORRECT stamp pad trim tag and block stamp , GM date coded all parts ( trans, carb , rear, alternator,starter,rad etc..) If they claim low mileage it will have little wear on original seats , pedals, dash pad, door panels all suspension parts wire harness etc… If owner claims car was never hit you can look for damage to chassis parts, frame rails fenders, rear deck, etc.. last but not least birdcage If owner claims ALWAYS garage kept never in bad weather the birdcage and chassis should be immaculate condition . I can go on and on … when I bought my 70 and 75 they were advertised as original cars . My 75 1 owner my 70 2 owners both owners did not have a lot of PAPERWORK but after going over both cars I knew they were the real deal !! I didn’t need ur paperwork and window sticker to tell me that .. Oh and buy the way they both won NCRS top flight awards and Bloomington Gold
Even if you actually have a vast knowledge of Corvettes, for us mere mortals we need every tool in the book to verify originality. That means we need authentic paperwork to help in that goal. The car will not speak for itself and tell you that. It will tell you some but not reveal all.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,732
Likes: 1,903
From: LONG ISLAND
2025 C3 ('68-'73) of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2023 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
My exact thoughts. The whooooo haaaaa is the lack of miles. Drive it & watch the value drop fast & like a rock. It belongs in a museum !!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 805
Likes: 260
I disagree. First off, you can attain a Top Flight without VERIFYING OPTIONS. You can Top Flight without the original engine. Anybody can buy date coded parts. Condition of a car is not verified by paperwork so that is irrelevant. And if what you’re saying is true, people wouldn’t be getting fooled by cars with FAKE paperwork, fake stamps and so forth. Even the best of judges can not always tell for sure what options came with a car after a car has either been restored or very carefully had them added to a car that looks like a Survivor by someone who knows what judges look for. The ONLY way you can tell for sure is with real paperwork. A well done fake stamp is very hard to tell. In fact, the more I’ve been around these cars the only person I feel can know for sure is Al G. And paperwork does not prove a stamp, only options.
Even if you actually have a vast knowledge of Corvettes, for us mere mortals we need every tool in the book to verify originality. That means we need authentic paperwork to help in that goal. The car will not speak for itself and tell you that. It will tell you some but not reveal all.
Even if you actually have a vast knowledge of Corvettes, for us mere mortals we need every tool in the book to verify originality. That means we need authentic paperwork to help in that goal. The car will not speak for itself and tell you that. It will tell you some but not reveal all.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,100
Likes: 801
From: Massapequa Park NY
again not correct .. first of all you if ur car is not #s matching it would be extremely hard to top flight the rest of the way ..have you ever attended a NCRS judging ? If not you should . These guys know their corvette’s better than the GM engineers. You can’t fool them they will sniff out any unauthentic part . Secondly the average buyer say spends btwn 30 and 50k you don’t need paperwork if you know what to look for and again the car will tell you her story.. if you really have to see a piece of paper , drop the tank it’s all there .. Now if you’re an investor and will trailer queen it and spent 150k you will want to flip it for a profit then maybe all the paperwork will be important . Otherwise for the average owner again it is useless if you know what you are looking for
If you don’t want to agree with me and others that feel like I do, that’s fine. THATS YOUR OPINION. It does not make me “incorrect”
I have more than attended a NCRS judging. I HAVE Judged for NCRS. I never really wanted to judge and didn’t ask to. They asked me. And I’m glad I did. It was a very good learning experience and I’d do it again. Have YOU ever judged? I Judged at the NCRS Metro show in May 2023 C3 mechanical and C2 body. They, we, DO NOT know every part or every running change ever made. Nobody knows everything. I learn new things all the time and I’ve been around these cars for over 35 years. Collectively we can cover a great deal. National shows are more critical and have better talent/knowledge of course. And cars are getting awarded points for the Typical assembly. They do NOT check for what the car came out of St Louis with for ALL the options. Some but not all, or if there is a clear issue. For example if we can tell a 69 did not come with side pipes but it has them they get a deduction. If we can’t tell they get the proper points. I believe they do require some proof for the bigger dollar, rarer cars such as L88’s or something like that but I don’t get involved in that area. And I know plenty of Judged cars over the years that have been done incorrectly in some way or another. It happens. It’s a constantly improving system. You do the best you can. I am an NCRS guy on and off since 1992 (but I have a high number because they lost my original number when I rejoined). And I’m hoping to assist in some updates to the new JG manual.
Matching Numbers? It’s NOT THAT MANY POINTS! I don’t have the sheets in front of me now but what is the pad worth? Something like 88 points out of several thousand for the whole car? I can tell you exactly when I get home. BG might be different, never did that. Transmissions do not get checked for vin. Many TF cars do not have the original BORN WITH DRIVETRAIN. I hate the term “matching Numbers”. It’s outdated and meaningless.
Dropping the tank is great if the sticker is still there. Its not always. It’s better to have paper than not.
Again. Its NOT A MATTER OF CORRECT or incorrect. It’s your opinion that differs from me and many others.
And I DO AGREE the car tells SOME things such as condition, accidents and so forth. GM Documentation (authentic paper of course) ONLY tells what the car came out of the factory with, not how many accidents. So it IS important to read the car. But it’s foolish to not look for paperwork. Sellers make claims all the time and people come on here after they bought the car ONLY then to find out the car was not as advertised or worse they were outright lied to. And GM docs can be faked so it’s not fool proof. I don’t know anyone that would not want GM docs to verify what there car came out as.
I recently purchased a L71 that doesn’t have many docs. I am reasonably sure the car is genuine and will have the block verified by CCAS as soon as I get it into the garage in the near future. Getting the pad verified with paperwork from them is worth it for that car. Hopefully the tank sticker is there and readable, haven’t dropped the tank but even if not it’s ok. So paperwork is not a deal breaker for me. But to totally write it off as you seem to be doing is foolish in MY OPINION. Are you INCORRECT? No. That’s your prerogative. Many will not agree with you. That’s your choice.
If GM paperwork was not important, then people would not spend money to have it faked.
So let me get this straight. You “claim” you don’t like paperwork. So when you Top Flighted and Bloomed Gold did you tell them to keep the paperwork? Why would you even go for any awards if you can’t SHOW the award to someone? When you or your heirs go to sell the car are you going to let the car “tell” the buyer it was TF’d and BG? That’s ridiculous of course. Are you NOT going to show them THAT paperwork? Forgive me but that sounds a bit hypocritical. In that case it seems to serve you. And you should be proud of the awards they received. So that one type of paper is good you have, but the other paperwork you don’t have is not needed?
We are not going to convince each other. No problem. The difference is that I’m fine with you having your own opinion about it. You don’t see me calling you INCORRECT. As arrogant as I am, I still wouldn’t use that term for something like this. Can we get past this now? It’s really not that big a deal.
Last edited by ed427vette; Aug 23, 2023 at 10:09 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 805
Likes: 260
Good attitude to have. You bought the car to enjoy.
One of my neighbors has a Ferrari that he loves driving around. He told me some of his Ferrari owning friends told him he’s causing the car to depreciate by driving it, and that it’ll be worth less as a relatively high mileage car when he goes to sell it. He said he doesn’t care; he bought his Ferrari to enjoy driving, not to stare at in his garage.
I love looking at Corvette Mike’s website, and the amazing cars he has. When I was looking last year, I called a local car collector (of many very expensive, Concours-level classic cars) for Corvette referrals, and he referred me to Corvette Mike. That referral, I think, means a lot.
I bought my car sight unseen last year, from someone who is very trusted in the automotive industry.. If you know what you want, and what you’re getting into, it’s perfectly acceptable to trust someone who is trustworthy.
Your car is gorgeous, Enjoy!
One of my neighbors has a Ferrari that he loves driving around. He told me some of his Ferrari owning friends told him he’s causing the car to depreciate by driving it, and that it’ll be worth less as a relatively high mileage car when he goes to sell it. He said he doesn’t care; he bought his Ferrari to enjoy driving, not to stare at in his garage.
I love looking at Corvette Mike’s website, and the amazing cars he has. When I was looking last year, I called a local car collector (of many very expensive, Concours-level classic cars) for Corvette referrals, and he referred me to Corvette Mike. That referral, I think, means a lot.
I bought my car sight unseen last year, from someone who is very trusted in the automotive industry.. If you know what you want, and what you’re getting into, it’s perfectly acceptable to trust someone who is trustworthy.
Your car is gorgeous, Enjoy!
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 14,138
Likes: 935
From: Fremont Ca
2022 C4 of the Year Finalist - Modified
[QUOTE The one thing and only thing that matters is “THE CAR WILL SPEAK FOR ITSELF PERIOD “ end of story[/QUOTE]
Any car will tell you what you need to know for the most part. Worn or perfect soft parts,wear on the carpet. This is the steering wheel in my 12,300 75,the grain in the wheel is perfect.
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Racer
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 340
Likes: 37
From: Plymouth, Ma
I am awaiting delivery of a 1977 black on black L82 coupe that was in Mike’s secret vault. It’s got 1600 miles and is a NCRS 4 star Bow tie winner. Plenty of pics, but because of what I have read about Corvette Mike I was comfortable not seeing it in person. He also wants first crack at it should I decide to sell it.
Anybody care to share their experience with Corvette Mike?
Anybody care to share their experience with Corvette Mike?