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Here is a ' 69 L-88 car raced by John and Burt Greenwood, he installed a ZL-1 engine with GM support and raced it. Does only a C.O.P.O. order form make a ZL-1 car ? any more than this car, or any other L-88 that was raced with one. This is where the history and the evidence is important and in some case can mean more. What do you think ?
Not really. But a race car's value is based ont he races it won versus its configuration or engine type (normally). Corvette or Camaro collecting is different from race car collecting. Corvette collectors will not recognize the Greenwood cars as being factory ZL-1 or L-88 cars because they were not. They left the factory as something else, and the Corvette hobby uses the "day of production" as the benchmark for preservation. There are insurgents that battle for other views as well...
The ZL-1's that are selling as being factory cars are known to the best of the market's ability. There may be data that comes out and helps someday down the road, but the cars are known and there were only 71 of them. The sixty nine 1969 Camaro ZL-1's can actually be split into two groups...The 50 "COPO 9560" Harrell/Gibb cars had a split of M40 and M22 or M21 transmissions, I am not sure of the correct numbers. GM built another 19 of them for other dealers, primarily Berger and Nickey Chevrolet, but I don't know the nitty gritty details. They are out there I am sure.
For $1,000 less you could order a ZL-1 Corvette. Zora had shown the white 68 "press" car and it was an issue of Car Life that outed the aluminum motor. As far is known only the Yellow M22 ex Judski coupe and the Orange M40 convertible (that sold for $3M) are accepted as real. The Otis Chandler car is now considered to be a latter day conversion.
The ZL-1 engine was designed for racing applications and perhaps specifically Can Am racing. Greenwood's cars received ZL-1 blocks but the true destiny of the motors was for the Can Am series. Remember most of the Greenwood cars started life as lowly 327/300 horse roadsters that due to accidents ended up in the junkyard to be stripped for parts. Greenwood used hundreds of frames and bodies during his years of racing and replaced frames after particularly hard races. While there are recognized restored Greenwood cars, they are products of a tough time. Historically, they are not considered "ZL-1"s or even L-88's from new. They used the L-88/ZL-1 homologation paperwork to enter races and were carefully built to win. They were not GM built cars. DeLorenzo cars in a case or two were L88 cars that retained their history after racing, and are a bird of a different feather.
Block numbers....
Can-Am blocks 68/69 - Reynolds # 0-294550 - no liner? # 0-321270 - no liner? # O-326711 - 4.44" bore with steel liners (427 ci)
Can-Am blocks 70/71 - Reynolds?. # O-399204 - 4.5" bore and steel liners (509 ci) # O-495102 - 4.5" bore and no liners
For $1,000 less you could order a ZL-1 Corvette. Zora had shown the white 68 "press" car and it was an issue of Car Life that outed the aluminum motor. As far is known only the Yellow M22 ex Judski coupe and the Orange M40 convertible (that sold for $3M) are accepted as real. The Otis Chandler car is now considered to be a latter day
Am I missing something, I thought the orange car is not accepted as a real ZL1.
Not really. But a race car's value is based ont he races it won versus its configuration or engine type (normally). Corvette or Camaro collecting is different from race car collecting. Corvette collectors will not recognize the Greenwood cars as being factory ZL-1 or L-88 cars because they were not. They left the factory as something else, and the Corvette hobby uses the "day of production" as the benchmark for preservation. There are insurgents that battle for other views as well...
The ZL-1's that are selling as being factory cars are known to the best of the market's ability. There may be data that comes out and helps someday down the road, but the cars are known and there were only 71 of them. The sixty nine 1969 Camaro ZL-1's can actually be split into two groups...The 50 "COPO 9560" Harrell/Gibb cars had a split of M40 and M22 or M21 transmissions, I am not sure of the correct numbers. GM built another 19 of them for other dealers, primarily Berger and Nickey Chevrolet, but I don't know the nitty gritty details. They are out there I am sure.
For $1,000 less you could order a ZL-1 Corvette. Zora had shown the white 68 "press" car and it was an issue of Car Life that outed the aluminum motor. As far is known only the Yellow M22 ex Judski coupe and the Orange M40 convertible (that sold for $3M) are accepted as real. The Otis Chandler car is now considered to be a latter day conversion.
The ZL-1 engine was designed for racing applications and perhaps specifically Can Am racing. Greenwood's cars received ZL-1 blocks but the true destiny of the motors was for the Can Am series. Remember most of the Greenwood cars started life as lowly 327/300 horse roadsters that due to accidents ended up in the junkyard to be stripped for parts. Greenwood used hundreds of frames and bodies during his years of racing and replaced frames after particularly hard races. While there are recognized restored Greenwood cars, they are products of a tough time. Historically, they are not considered "ZL-1"s or even L-88's from new. They used the L-88/ZL-1 homologation paperwork to enter races and were carefully built to win. They were not GM built cars. DeLorenzo cars in a case or two were L88 cars that retained their history after racing, and are a bird of a different feather.
Block numbers....
Can-Am blocks 68/69 - Reynolds # 0-294550 - no liner? # 0-321270 - no liner? # O-326711 - 4.44" bore with steel liners (427 ci)
Can-Am blocks 70/71 - Reynolds?. # O-399204 - 4.5" bore and steel liners (509 ci) # O-495102 - 4.5" bore and no liners
ZL-1 Factory blocks - 1997 & up # 3946053 (No 'O') 427 ci.
# 3992038 (O?) * may be 4.44" bore w/ Liners - era?.
Yenko castings.....who did these???
There is a lot of debate on the M40 orange convertible whether it is a real ZL1, the yellow car that Roger Judski owns isn't debatable and it is the only car with verified factory paperwork.
For $1,000 less you could order a ZL-1 Corvette. Zora had shown the white 68 "press" car and it was an issue of Car Life that outed the aluminum motor. As far is known only the Yellow M22 ex Judski coupe and the Orange M40 convertible (that sold for $3M) are accepted as real. The Otis Chandler car is now considered to be a latter day
Am I missing something, I thought the orange car is not accepted as a real ZL1.
Everyone knows my opinion by now, I do not believe the orange car left the factory as a real ZL1. I believe it left the factory as an L88 and raced with a ZL1 engine.
Everyone knows my opinion by now, I do not believe the orange car left the factory as a real ZL1. I believe it left the factory as an L88 and raced with a ZL1 engine.
The drag racer who got the block from Jim Hall was not a racer who was getting goodies from Chevrolet thru Hall as the back door supplier in the 60’s. I think he got it in the early 80’s as a broken block that Jim Hall had since the 67 CanAm season. Jim Hall did not throw old things away. He had a warehouse that contained all of his old race cars. Every Chaparral in existence was there although major parts of some models had been used in the construction of subsequent models so they no longer existed. I think he has turned his time capsule warehouse into a museum since. I got the block in the late 80’s as a partially repaired project with no information about its oiling system.
I got to sit and talk to Jim Hall one on one for a prolonged period of time, super interesting experience. The same day, I spent over an hour with Bondurant. Wish I had a tape recorder.
Such a beautiful race car, takes me right back to my childhood. Just looking up this chassis, it appears they started using the ZL-1 with a new frame that used it as part of the support structure in '68 when Knutson was the engine builder. They seemed to shorten the stroke and enlarge the bore (430 ci) using another engine builder George Bolthoff as they moved operations from California to in house. This chassis had the engine punched out again to 468 ci and the advancements and power were happening really fast. Looks like Hilborn fuel injection hanging out in the back too, just the epitomy of cool raw racing.
As far as the Orange ZL-1 goes, I saw that car at Carlise in '90 parked in the general area with another car where they were selling parts. It wasn't in the L-88 parking, I walked past it and noticed the automatic and the octane sticker as well as a Gulf sticker on the nose and rear above the tag. I would have remembered L-88 or ZL-1 on the shifter surround. The car had five spoke AR rims and looked like a survivor, but not any effort to primp, just a driver. Briefly talked and he said the original engine was at home in the garage. He may have had a '68 shifter surround and had just been laying low, but no racing stripes or decals as you see later on. According to the Vette Vues article on the Corvette Repair site, " Tank sticker, COPO order forms etc. were sent to a lab for testing on the ink and glue with a 100% match ".
So back to my point, I'm not one for 100% lab results under these circumstances, nor do I belong to the community of the 'judging or deciding' where these opinions are heralded to the tune of 'trust' where big dollar buyers are concerned. As far as I'm concerned your on your own. The factory assembled line car, with 'paper' can be assembled back to that point in time. With period parts etc. But a car purchased by a race team as part of a Homologation program is somehow excluded from that 'governing body'. Again fine, not in My World. They get to have an opinion and a perspective. Just like me or the next person. I like the judged cars and the standards they work hard at. Its just not my bag, I like history and I like survivors and old race cars that need some help getting back on its wheels. Speaking of which, that McLaren would be an absolute dream to drive on the track !
edit : I forgot to note, I remember reading at some point GM had been giving approval to a team, perhaps more, to allow Winters to work directly with them in that 69ish window. I find that very interesting considering the internal dry sump pump and ongoing developmnet. Moreso at how quickly it was happening as we dig into it !
Last edited by FastCarsNMeanGuitars; 01-18-2024 at 02:24 AM.
Reason: note on Winters foundry
Here is what I know about the Yenko blocks. There was a mad rush to get these blocks as they got scarce. Like John Greenwood heading into his serious effort to offer built to order customer cars, purchased as many as he could find. Thus Yenko asked permission to do a continuation and got hooked up with the Winter's foundry guys to do them, sans the Chevrolet snowflakes. This was about 1975, as the IMSA adopted AAGT class, to help the American brands to be more competitive against the European Homologated Hot Rods. The topic where competitors were fielding Big Block power, he saw a niche and got them cast. These would be machined to customer specs.
I found all kinds of other stories on these, that he bought the ZL-1 molds, that he started these as early as 1967, etc etc etc. Tall tales, rumors, etc etc.
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-18-2024 at 01:23 PM.
The Can Am started later in the year, than the other major racing series. Bolthoff was the guy newly working with the Reynolds 390 Can Am blocks. They were testing it in May 1970, Bruce returned for testing fresh from Indianapolis and on June 2, 1970 died driving the M8D with the Reynolds block. They were still fitting Customer cars with the ZL-1s. In 1969 they offered the M12 and in 1970 the M8C.
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-18-2024 at 10:38 PM.
The Orange car seems real, and the market offered a vote of confidence as several bidders made the $3.2 million number real.
Other factors are longtime period photos and the M40 transmission....just like Zora's white car. Both Jim Hall and Zora believed inthe automatic transmission for the power plant and for racing. While the paperwork does not "fit" into accepted. NCRS dogma, and the arguements are good, there is no way after 50 years to sort out what actually happened. And no other suitor has come forward in the last 50 years to challenge that car in any meaningful way. I accept the fact that with just two actual cars, paperwork possibly would be different, unusual or even wrong. As long as the GM dealer got the money.
It took this long for the DCT to become the ultimate proof of their vision and the reality. When some current Corvette guys say they really need to saw through the gears.....i think of what Jim Hall would have thought. He hate losing races when drivers abused and blew engines. The automatic prevented that and was a more elegant if complicated solution.
The 2E Forever!
Last edited by international blue; 01-18-2024 at 10:50 AM.
Just so it is clear from me on the Orange car, I am going to list it as an L88, but the phonied up paperwork, etc. no way will I continue to have it on a list as a ZL-1. Their story also Blows the chance of it being a ZL-1!!!!! They claim Grady Davis/Gulf Oil helped get this, claimed brass hat car, but not for them, but for a friend, so highly unlikely and no verification of that, just a story, tall tale. It had a chance of being an L88, fitted with a ZL-1 if it would have been used in Zora's test fleet, but no! They claim it was created as a ZL-1 and went straight out the door. It sounds like cloak and dagger bullcrap that Gulf Oil interceded in arranging to get this car, even prior to the production, and oh, ship it to this West Penn Garage to this guy. Ya Right! The well known L88 model having been available since 1967/68, ya very likely to get the 1969 L88 model.
Just so it is clear from me on the Orange car, I am going to list it as an L88, but the phonied up paperwork, etc. no way will I continue to have it on a list as a ZL-1. Their story also Blows the chance of it being a ZL-1!!!!! They claim Grady Davis/Gulf Oil helped get this, claimed brass hat car, but not for them, but for a friend, so highly unlikely and no verification of that, just a story, tall tale. It had a chance of being an L88, fitted with a ZL-1 if it would have been used in Zora's test fleet, but no! They claim it was created as a ZL-1 and went straight out the door. It sounds like cloak and dagger bullcrap that Gulf Oil interceded in arranging to get this car, even prior to the production, and oh, ship it to this West Penn Garage to this guy. Ya Right! The well known L88 model having been available since 1967/68, ya very likely to get the 1969 L88 model.
I believe you more than anyone on this topic, you obviously know more about those cars than anyone on this forum. There are a lot of people with more money than brains and believe everything they are told by the auction. The auction takes no responsibility for accuracy so why would you believe them. Thanks Tcracing, I have learned more from you than any other so called expert. 👍
Last edited by DarrellD23; 01-18-2024 at 03:10 PM.
Reason: Adding wording
Just so it is clear from me on the Orange car, I am going to list it as an L88, but the phonied up paperwork, etc. no way will I continue to have it on a list as a ZL-1. Their story also Blows the chance of it being a ZL-1!!!!! They claim Grady Davis/Gulf Oil helped get this, claimed brass hat car, but not for them, but for a friend, so highly unlikely and no verification of that, just a story, tall tale. It had a chance of being an L88, fitted with a ZL-1 if it would have been used in Zora's test fleet, but no! They claim it was created as a ZL-1 and went straight out the door. It sounds like cloak and dagger bullcrap that Gulf Oil interceded in arranging to get this car, even prior to the production, and oh, ship it to this West Penn Garage to this guy. Ya Right! The well known L88 model having been available since 1967/68, ya very likely to get the 1969 L88 model.
I have it listed in my L88 registry as one of the 17 M40 cars and not listed as a ZL1. I know another person who is a long time master judge and one of the most knowledgeable experts on the planet has the car listed as an L88 in his database not a ZL1 as well.
The Orange car seems real, and the market offered a vote of confidence as several bidders made the $3.2 million number real.
Other factors are longtime period photos and the M40 transmission....just like Zora's white car. Both Jim Hall and Zora believed inthe automatic transmission for the power plant and for racing. While the paperwork does not "fit" into accepted. NCRS dogma, and the arguements are good, there is no way after 50 years to sort out what actually happened. And no other suitor has come forward in the last 50 years to challenge that car in any meaningful way. I accept the fact that with just two actual cars, paperwork possibly would be different, unusual or even wrong. As long as the GM dealer got the money.
It took this long for the DCT to become the ultimate proof of their vision and the reality. When some current Corvette guys say they really need to saw through the gears.....i think of what Jim Hall would have thought. He hate losing races when drivers abused and blew engines. The automatic prevented that and was a more elegant if complicated solution.
The 2E Forever!
The fact that the car sold at auction does not validate that the orange car left the factory as an RPO ZL1. The story was sold and someone bought it IMHO. I have yet to see one piece of factory paperwork that has been verified as original and I have reviewed the paperwork for the car extensively. In fact the paperwork was presented to NCRS and was not validated and the car is not allowed to be judged at NCRS events. If someone can post up original GM documentation that directly ties the vin of the orange car to being an RPO built ZL1 I will change my stance.
I believe you more than anyone on this topic, you obviously know more about those cars than anyone on this forum. There are a lot of people with more money than brains and believe everything they are told by the auction. The auction takes no responsibility for accuracy so why would you believe them. Thanks Tcracing, I have learned more from you than any other so called expert. 👍
Thanks, I don't walk around claiming the title of Expert, I like to stay in the lane of Researcher. I am just trying to share, contribute, give analysis, etc.. and I have a lot of respect for the other inputs. I do take everything and attempt to sort and timeline it, see if it makes sense, looks possible and I am armed with a helluva personal library of literature, records, etc. etc. etc. I insure for 100K. I do prefer the racing histories like McLaren, Chaparral, etc. more so that Corvette history, but my whole life has evolved around Corvettes, we had the 1957 since the day I was born. Got to know a whole bunch of famous drivers and personalities, because of my Father's career and his clients.
I have it listed in my L88 registry as one of the 17 M40 cars and not listed as a ZL1. I know another person who is a long time master judge and one of the most knowledgeable experts on the planet has the car listed as an L88 in his database not a ZL1 as well.
I also want to thank you for your knowledgable input. Between you and TCracing there should be no doubt the orange car is not the real deal. 3.2 million LMAO.
Last edited by DarrellD23; 01-18-2024 at 06:52 PM.
Reason: Correction
An Expert would be someone knowledgeable about the whole model, to be able to potentially authenticate, inspect, know how to guide a restoration, have knowledge on it's history, the options, Ownership trails maybe, etc. etc.
I guess a researcher could be an expert, in what they do. Yes I have done research for the West Coast Auto Museum chains (SDAM, Cunningham, Harrah, Peterson) and that supported some Club Marques. I have limitedly did research for a number of Magazine Article contributors, then my private hobby work.
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-18-2024 at 10:41 PM.
Ok I found something, so I was right, but also wrong!
Looks like the first casting of Blocks for Yenko were as I thought, kind of connected up to the Winters people, but later it looks like they decided to sell him the molds, but told him to knock the Snowflake off of them and that is when Yenko was cast in.
Also I have conflicting date by just one year, with stoppage of casting halting by GM in 1973, I thought 1974, and Yenko production claimed 1974, I have 1975. So maybe he got the permission 1974, but started the work 1975.
Last edited by TCracingCA; 01-20-2024 at 01:30 PM.
01-17-2024, 07:46 PM
