Not only do the C5s have ABS they have active handling which corrects bad driving behavior. Whats the next step? Let the computer steer the car too?

 

Too late. BMW already did that, too.

 

Not sure I would undertake this project, but if I did and I was in the same place you are I would do a tube frame and C4 suspension. You would have all your tone-rings and mounting, you could build a strong base, you would already have factory rack and pinion steering without adding it on a chassis never designed for it, and if would help installing the LS1 because you could do better mounts.

 

lostpatrolman- It would be an interesting project. I am currently doing major mod to my '68 roadster. LS1/4L60e, suspension mods etc. Go with it and investigate the posibilities.
Dan
www.vetteworksonline.com

 

If this statistic was taken in the early stages of abs, then most likely the people driving abs equipted cars were not used to abs method of braking, like the article stated. I remember a few years ago there was a fatal crash here in florida when a few officers were chasing a fleeing suspect. Somethign happened to make the officers need to stop really quickly. One police car did not brake very well at all and hit an object and died. Another cruiser also crashed. The officer that survived said he was pumping the brakes, his car had ABS.... The department believed the fatal crash of the other officer might have been caused by the same thing.

 

I briefly looked into a tube frame. I would love to have one, unfurtunately it seems they are around 6k just for the frame, not including the suspension components. Being a college student, that is definately out of my price range. So, I was thinking about doing a 5 bar like TT has, then modify the front upper A-arm mounts to help the geometry some. Then tubular control arms. Should help drastically with the handling.

 

427V8,

You're right, I overlooked the fact that all 4 wheels are controlled seperately. A proportioning valve will get you close to front/back equality on a non ABS car, but that can vary with the conditions. However, it has been shown that the same car with ABS stops marginally slower than the car with the ABS disabled can. In fact, remembering videos in my Driver's Ed class (we never had to practice parallel parking, but we watched plenty of movies!) they said that ABS does not claim to stop the car faster! ABS locks up the brakes on and off, this is Not threshhold braking.

As far as computers doing things better than people? They can add faster, near-zero reaction times, react to things they're designed to react to, modulate the brakes 1000 times per second. Can they "feel" the tires just starting to lose traction? Apparently not or ABS would threshhold brake. Another thing I remember reading, there has been little success trying to get a computer to operate a car on the race track. Far more complicated that just braking well, but serves to demonstrate the kind of thing that computers cannot do as well as humans.

I do not know of a single racer than uses ABS, maybe there are some less experienced that do? If you need the ABS to feel when you're braking too hard, you may be like the guy at work who we call "Larry who can't feel his feet." As for the active handling stuff, anyone who reads Road and Track or any of those magazines can tell you that active handling (even on supercars) is referred to as either more or less obtrusive, but always SLOW!

Driver aids are for soccer moms.

-Chris

 

70LS1, how would you adapt the wheel speed sensors to our cars?

 

Agree here.Once drove a C-4 and spun the turkey because of a fouled sensor. Can't imagine a back-fit to a C-3. Crazy.
Drove my C-3 thru a storm for 130 miles (Bowling Green heading back west) and was very comfortable with the C-3 brakes. They worked great. Yoko's worked good in the wet ,too.

 

most c3 brake systems have enough air in them to be inherently anti lock.

we don't need no stinkin computers.

 

ABS DOES HAVE SOME NEGATIVE FEATURES.

Case In Point: Once in the 1970's, before ABS brakes, I was day dreaming while driving ..and at the last moment I realized I was driving into an intersection against a red light! I slammed on the brakes..there was the awful screetching sound of the locked up wheels and also large plumes of white smog billowing out of the car's wheel wells. Sliding into an intersection with the loud screetching sound and the plumes of white smoke was enough to alert everyone to brake to a stop. The noise and smoke stopped the cross traffic and no one hit me. In today's world with ABS, if I jammed on my brakes there would be no white rubber smoke and no screetching noise. For my 1970's situation, if I had ABS, I probably would have had a collision with someone. PROBLEM: WITH ABS YOU DON"T GET BRAKE NOISE AND SMOKE TO WARN OTHER DRIVERS!!!!

Another problem with ABS: I've noticed that if I'm heavily braking and I hit a chuck hole or a rail road track (that causes the wheels to bounce up and down and unload the wheels and perhaps allow them to momentarily stop) the ABS will disconnect. If you hit a road discontinuity (hole) and the wheels bounce, the ABS will disconnect for almost a second of time. This can be somewhat frightening and also very definately a safety hazard. The ABS on my Ford Thunderbird will disconnect for a second (half second?) ...disconnect means ..no brakes whatsoever. This no brake situation is really a dangerous situation.

 

I will have to jump in and agree with many on here about ABS or any other driver helper that can be added to our cars or any future cars. These items are intended for non drivers or those that do not know there car. When the 84 Corvette came out it was entertained as the easiest car to go fast in by the non driver as opposed to other performance cars of the time of which you had to know what you were doing or they would eat you alive. Now I will agree that these items are nice for the untrained PUBLIC for which these items were actually designed for. But it takes the control from you if you know what you are doing. Such as the case as one mentioned that if in snow and you want to stop faster you will build up a little hill in front of your tires to help you stop faster of which you can not do with ABS as it will maintain roll. Also it will greatly hinder you in other maneuvers of which you may need to take to avoid a situation. As with any other Driver Aid there is always a plus and a minus to any given item. If you are a person of which does not want to learn there car and how it handles any situations then these aids are great and should be used to the fullest potential of these items. But if you do know your car then I would say they are more of a hindrance.

 

How is that? I have an 84. It rides rough, the brake pedal is very firm and takes some real pressure to apply, and has no ABS, no airbags, no ASR. I do not see any real comfort item or driver aid in the car other then the cup holder. The car feels very unrefined, and brutal (not hp wise though, stupid crossfire), yet stable at high speeds. And with the kuhmo tires on it, it handles 3x better then my 69 ever did. True, ABS may have a few downsides, but can also save your butt. Yes, it is good to know the limits of your car, but when something unexpected happens at the blink of an eye, you ARE going to LOCK UP the brakes initially. That moment your freeze and try to figure out what the hell just happened is when ABS shines.

 

you know i was thinking the same thing...the C4 suspension has so much to offer and with the ABS its a "complete package"....i like the C3 but even my Explorer is more comfortable to drive .....i wonder if i was driving a C4 i would feel the same way.

 

It really doesnt seem like much of a project since I already have the body off, all the brake lines are off. I am planning on already replacing the lines, master and booster. I was thinking about hydroboost, but seems some people dont like its sensativity, not sure if I would either. The main things I am concerned about are will it work, and how do I mount the wheel speed sensors. Seems the rest of it would just be replacing my old stuff with the fbody stuff.

 

Sorry I did not seperate the 84 from that stuff. But for handling it was rated fantastic just no motor.

To each his own really on what they want out of a car and how they feel in a car. I myself do not like those additional items. But to each there own. If it will make you feel better and more comfortable to drive the car with the addition of that equipment I say go for it if it makes you happy.

 

I am just lookign for feedback and opinions, and possible methods of making the system work. Im not dead set one way or the other. I dont really see anytime that locking up the brakes is going to be beneficial though, unless I go offroading, which I do not plan on doing From reading some talk from the c5 guys, it appears that you can basically threshold brake without the ABS kicking in. But once you get to the point of the brakes locking up the ABS will kick in. Seems like a good safety backup to bail you out of trouble if the unexpected does occur.
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