Bent frame update
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 13
From: Holly MI
Bent frame update
As some may remember, I tried to have my car aligned last year, and found that the right side wheelbase is 1" shorter than the left side. The tire on the right is too close to the rear of the wheelwell. After a long and cold winter, I am now trying to find the root cause.
Last night, I measured from the gage hole on the frame to the body mount just behind the gills. I also measured to the front of the frame. For both measurements, I used a plumb bob and marked the spot on the floor. The measurement to the body mount was just about perfect (measurement error if anything). The one to the front of the frame I need to redo to be sure, but it looks good too. I have to redo it because I didn't remove the bumper support, and it is hard to tell exactly where to measure to.
After the frame measurements, I measured the lower control arm using the same method. It came out extremely close the the measurements posted on corvettefaq.com. So, it looks like the actual lower arm is not bent, and the frame is not bent.
My next step is to measure from the gage hole on the frame to the lower control arm (as someone suggested before) to see if the arm was bent back at the mount. Does anyone have any other ideas? Anybody ever see an upper control arm bent?
Thanks
Ken
Last night, I measured from the gage hole on the frame to the body mount just behind the gills. I also measured to the front of the frame. For both measurements, I used a plumb bob and marked the spot on the floor. The measurement to the body mount was just about perfect (measurement error if anything). The one to the front of the frame I need to redo to be sure, but it looks good too. I have to redo it because I didn't remove the bumper support, and it is hard to tell exactly where to measure to.
After the frame measurements, I measured the lower control arm using the same method. It came out extremely close the the measurements posted on corvettefaq.com. So, it looks like the actual lower arm is not bent, and the frame is not bent.
My next step is to measure from the gage hole on the frame to the lower control arm (as someone suggested before) to see if the arm was bent back at the mount. Does anyone have any other ideas? Anybody ever see an upper control arm bent?
Thanks
Ken
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 13
From: Holly MI
I tried to take it to a frame shop, and they would have nothing to do with it. I was referred to a Corvette shop by another member. I called them, and they said they send their frames out. I called the shop they use, and the guy said he wouldn't touch it because the body was bolted on. His theory was that is the body was bolted back onto a bent frame, he would destroy the body if he pulled on it. The frame shop sent me to a front end shop they said would work with me to get the front end better. After putting the car on the trailer and driving down there, the front end shop wanted nothing to do with me either.
My goal is find the problem myself. If I can tell these shops exactly what is wrong, I think I have a better chance of getting them to help me. It will also give me a better idea about what pieces may have to come off the car to fix the problem.
Thanks
Ken
My goal is find the problem myself. If I can tell these shops exactly what is wrong, I think I have a better chance of getting them to help me. It will also give me a better idea about what pieces may have to come off the car to fix the problem.
Thanks
Ken
Race Director
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 16,978
Likes: 7
From: In Dreams There Is Truth Ohio
With all the rejections you've faced....you have two choices....remove the body and haul the rolling chassis to whomever...or buy another frame...it's obvious you have a frame issue, since the people in the know don't want to touch your car.
I would check the a arms, maybe they were replaced and the wrong side put on...or maybe they are bent...
If you need a source for used a arms, give me a shout.
I would check the a arms, maybe they were replaced and the wrong side put on...or maybe they are bent...
If you need a source for used a arms, give me a shout.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,330
Likes: 1
From: Kerrville Texas
I have seen donor frames on Ebay that went for around $600. Of course then you take the risk of getting something thats rusted out or bent aswell. Not to mention the time and travel to pick it up or the expense of having it shipped.
Kona
Kona
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 199
Likes: 1
From: League City Texas
Ken if I'm not mistaken you and I spoke about this before. Take a measurement from the lower balljoint grease fitting to the frame under the cowl on each side. Next take a cross measurement from a spot or hole from the right side front frame rail to the left side of the frame under the cowl. Repeat from the l/f to the r/ cowl side. If there is a difference then you need frame work. If not check the shims in the upper and lower A- arms. There is a lot of adjustment there too. You may need a tram gauge too, just to clear the X- member and pan. 
If worse comes to worse, I just may have to take a road trip up to Holly and bring along my measuring gauges and we'll decipher the problem and try and hook you up with a good frame shop.
Walt
If worse comes to worse, I just may have to take a road trip up to Holly and bring along my measuring gauges and we'll decipher the problem and try and hook you up with a good frame shop.
Walt
Last edited by nostgry; Apr 8, 2005 at 01:09 PM.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 649
Likes: 2
From: Red Bank NJ
Good Luck,
I have been dealing with a similar problem for two years. The car has been to several shops. All of which are experienced body shops, aleignment shops etc. I think I'm on the home strech. I can sympathize with your frustration. The hardest damn part of all this is finding some willing to work on the car that is not a butcher. A higly recommend body shop told me the same thing they realy don't want to pull on a frame that has the body still on the car. They don't want to be responsible for damage to the body. Do as much as you can on your own so you can find out what the actual problem is. I'm going to cut the rear arm to get more adjustment on the toe of the tire. Ran out of space in the box where the trailing arm sits. So instead of doing something to the frame I'm tweaking the trailing arm.
I have been dealing with a similar problem for two years. The car has been to several shops. All of which are experienced body shops, aleignment shops etc. I think I'm on the home strech. I can sympathize with your frustration. The hardest damn part of all this is finding some willing to work on the car that is not a butcher. A higly recommend body shop told me the same thing they realy don't want to pull on a frame that has the body still on the car. They don't want to be responsible for damage to the body. Do as much as you can on your own so you can find out what the actual problem is. I'm going to cut the rear arm to get more adjustment on the toe of the tire. Ran out of space in the box where the trailing arm sits. So instead of doing something to the frame I'm tweaking the trailing arm.
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Instructor
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 199
Likes: 1
From: League City Texas
Originally Posted by GDaina
I have a question...what is the point in taking the measurements? And when all the measurements are done, then what?
The reason for taking measurements is to pinpoint the problem. For example I bought my 68 from a guy in Canada who knew absolutely nothing about Corvettes. He had bought the car in a box. It sat for 27 years in a guys garage who died.To make an already long story shorter, he had the shims on the upper A- arms backwards screwing up my alignment and wheelbase. Fortunatly I happened to work in a dealership and our front-end rack is a state of the art laser system. When we punched in 68 corvette the numbers came up to our amazement. We found that the shims were incorectly installed and fixed the problem rather easily. Instead of me guessing and possibly doing damage to the frame as I am a frame man by trade.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 13
From: Holly MI
GDaina,
The purpose of taking measurements it to find the cause of the problem. In the end, who knows, I may buy another frame. However, I don't want to buy another frame until I am sure of what is wrong with this one. It could turn out to be a problem with the cross member, and not the rails. If that is the case, the cross member can probably be pulled without damaging the body. Basically, I'm not willing to let guys at the frame shop dictate what I do with the car when they aren't even willing to put the car on their rack and find the problem. Even if I pulled the body and took the frame in, the first thing they would do is measure the frame. I am really hoping that if I can find the problem, and describe it to a frame shop, they will be at least willing to try.
nostgry,
Thanks for the offer. To be honest, I should have been doing this work over the winter. However, I can't stand laying on the cold concrete. I will be taking more measurements tonight and through the weekend. If I can't figure it out, I'll take you up on your offer.
smoothsailing,
I was lucky in the rear, it's aligned well. Good luck with the arm repair.
Ken
The purpose of taking measurements it to find the cause of the problem. In the end, who knows, I may buy another frame. However, I don't want to buy another frame until I am sure of what is wrong with this one. It could turn out to be a problem with the cross member, and not the rails. If that is the case, the cross member can probably be pulled without damaging the body. Basically, I'm not willing to let guys at the frame shop dictate what I do with the car when they aren't even willing to put the car on their rack and find the problem. Even if I pulled the body and took the frame in, the first thing they would do is measure the frame. I am really hoping that if I can find the problem, and describe it to a frame shop, they will be at least willing to try.
nostgry,
Thanks for the offer. To be honest, I should have been doing this work over the winter. However, I can't stand laying on the cold concrete. I will be taking more measurements tonight and through the weekend. If I can't figure it out, I'll take you up on your offer.
smoothsailing,
I was lucky in the rear, it's aligned well. Good luck with the arm repair.
Ken
Pro
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 511
Likes: 4
From: Phoenix AZ
My freind had a Firebird that had a problem that sounds almost like yours. One front wheel was sitting farther rear-ward in the wheel wheel. It was visably wrong as viewed from the side. He hadn't noticed it when he bought it. My first impression was that it had to be serious, frame/chassis, A-arms, etc. But it turned out the it was just a Bubba'ed up alignment. I was surprised that it could be moved that far off with alignment adjustment.
Also, A-arms can get bent, and Bubba might re-use them from an accident repair. If the accident puts the front corner of the other car into the wheel at a angled blow, the A-arms will bend.
Also, A-arms can get bent, and Bubba might re-use them from an accident repair. If the accident puts the front corner of the other car into the wheel at a angled blow, the A-arms will bend.
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 199
Likes: 1
From: League City Texas
Originally Posted by 82Vette'ster
My freind had a Firebird that had a problem that sounds almost like yours. One front wheel was sitting farther rear-ward in the wheel wheel. It was visably wrong as viewed from the side. He hadn't noticed it when he bought it. My first impression was that it had to be serious, frame/chassis, A-arms, etc. But it turned out the it was just a Bubba'ed up alignment. I was surprised that it could be moved that far off with alignment adjustment.
Also, A-arms can get bent, and Bubba might re-use them from an accident repair. If the accident puts the front corner of the other car into the wheel at a angled blow, the A-arms will bend.
Also, A-arms can get bent, and Bubba might re-use them from an accident repair. If the accident puts the front corner of the other car into the wheel at a angled blow, the A-arms will bend.
A lot of times the sub-frame moves on those Firebird - Camaro's too and a simple loosening of the sub-frame and adjusting will fix that problem too. It takes a pretty good sock on the wheel to bend an A-arm.
Pro
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 508
Likes: 1
From: Maplewood NJ
Originally Posted by bb69
I tried to take it to a frame shop, and they would have nothing to do with it. I was referred to a Corvette shop by another member. I called them, and they said they send their frames out. I called the shop they use, and the guy said he wouldn't touch it because the body was bolted on. His theory was that is the body was bolted back onto a bent frame, he would destroy the body if he pulled on it. The frame shop sent me to a front end shop they said would work with me to get the front end better. After putting the car on the trailer and driving down there, the front end shop wanted nothing to do with me either.
My goal is find the problem myself. If I can tell these shops exactly what is wrong, I think I have a better chance of getting them to help me. It will also give me a better idea about what pieces may have to come off the car to fix the problem.
Thanks
Ken
My goal is find the problem myself. If I can tell these shops exactly what is wrong, I think I have a better chance of getting them to help me. It will also give me a better idea about what pieces may have to come off the car to fix the problem.
Thanks
Ken
I had the same exact problems less than a year ago. I knew my frame was bent a little and needed a tweaking, but the only shop that would take the job wanted me to at least take the nose off to do the repairs. I figured if I'm going to go through all that work, I might as well pull the body, replace the frame, clean everything up, and deal with all the "while I'm at its". I ended up getting a very clean 1982 rolling frame with a differential for a about the same as the cost of repairing the old frame, including my transportation expenses. I know what I'm doing will be more $$ in the long run, but everything will be cleaned and/or refurbished by the time I'm done.
Good luck!
Race Director
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 16,978
Likes: 7
From: In Dreams There Is Truth Ohio
Correct me if I'm wrong...if you place the bare frame on the frame machine...it has 8 critical points that have to match, or are there 10 or 12? I fail to see how lying under the car, stretching a tape can match the accuracy of critical alignment points of the frame machine.....hence my question in the previous post.
Have you verified the A arms are straight and correct for the side? The uppers are R and L
Have you verified the A arms are straight and correct for the side? The uppers are R and L
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,609
Likes: 12
From: Massapequa Park NY
Sounds more like an alignment problem or bent control arm(s) to me. If the mounting points for the upper & lower arms don't appear to have been re-welded/repaired I'd bet on the arms being bent. The frame would have to be bent pretty severly to cause a 1" difference.
In my case the car had been hit on the right front & three of the four control arms were bent. Both right side arms. The frame was straightened, and was within an 1/8" of factory specs.
How many shims are on the upper arm? Similar to the drivers side?
Jim
In my case the car had been hit on the right front & three of the four control arms were bent. Both right side arms. The frame was straightened, and was within an 1/8" of factory specs.
How many shims are on the upper arm? Similar to the drivers side?
Jim
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 199
Likes: 1
From: League City Texas
[QUOTE=GDaina]Correct me if I'm wrong...if you place the bare frame on the frame machine...it has 8 critical points that have to match, or are there 10 or 12?
If you place a bare frame on a bench jig that holds the frame in place then you can measure the lengths and widths. The problem is not a lot of shops have that capability. I know of 1. Depending on the shop and the type of measureing system they use, accurate measurements can be obtained by 3 systems I'm aware of. First is the Car-O-Liner points system, where you can set up an infinate number of co-ordinating holes and points. But the car must be leveled with clamps. Second is the Shark ultra sound system which uses probes attached to symmetrical holes in the frame. This can be used on any surface whether the frame is level or not. Third is the Genesis system which uses laser light to measure from attached probes in the same manner as the Shark, but the frame must be level also. All these systems measure length, heigth, and width to within 1 mm. If a shop knows how to use these systems THEY ARE NEVER WRONG.
If you place a bare frame on a bench jig that holds the frame in place then you can measure the lengths and widths. The problem is not a lot of shops have that capability. I know of 1. Depending on the shop and the type of measureing system they use, accurate measurements can be obtained by 3 systems I'm aware of. First is the Car-O-Liner points system, where you can set up an infinate number of co-ordinating holes and points. But the car must be leveled with clamps. Second is the Shark ultra sound system which uses probes attached to symmetrical holes in the frame. This can be used on any surface whether the frame is level or not. Third is the Genesis system which uses laser light to measure from attached probes in the same manner as the Shark, but the frame must be level also. All these systems measure length, heigth, and width to within 1 mm. If a shop knows how to use these systems THEY ARE NEVER WRONG.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,845
Likes: 2
From: Apex NC
It sounds like a problem similar to the one forum member GregP faced with his '65. Take a look at
http://corvetteforum.net/classics/gr...5corvette3.htm
Shannon
http://corvetteforum.net/classics/gr...5corvette3.htm
Shannon