E85 - Ethanol 85%
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 4
From: Fairview Heights Illinois, near Saint Louis MO, STL C3 Shark
E85 - Ethanol 85%
It's popping up more and more in midwest at gas pumps. What technical/performance issues might arise with running 85% ethanol in your engine? C3 and your 200X daily driver? My inlaws saw it in their town for $0.20 LESS than the normal 10% ethanol stuff in midwest.
Does it cause any side-effects?
Need special valves or compression ratio?
special fuel injectors?
Nothing?
Does it cause any side-effects?
Need special valves or compression ratio?
special fuel injectors?
Nothing?
Race Director
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 11,360
Likes: 382
From: Plano TX
Ethanol is corrosive and special fuel tank, lines, pump etc are needed. It burns at a different mixture so fuel injection/carb has to be adapted.
Some new cars are "dual fuel" compatible and have the tank/lines that can handle it and a fuel injection system that senses the two fuels and adapts between them.
Energy content is less so you will use more of it. If it's only $0.20 less than gasoline you will pay more per mile.
Some new cars are "dual fuel" compatible and have the tank/lines that can handle it and a fuel injection system that senses the two fuels and adapts between them.
Energy content is less so you will use more of it. If it's only $0.20 less than gasoline you will pay more per mile.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
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From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Make sure you are reading the right labels. We have had Methanol-mix in Illinois for a LONG time and it has created NO problems for any vehicle. Because methanol can be produced from abundant North American supplies of natural gas, coal or even biomass, it offers energy security benefits it offers a clean alternative to petroleum-based fuels.
Methanol's power, performance and safety have also made it the fuel used in Indianapolis-type race cars since 1965, as well as alcohol-burning funny cars.
Ethanol is a completely different animal. Ethanol, ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol, is a liquid made from corn or other grains, other agricultural products or even biomass waste -- typically anything that contains carbon. Recently, because of support from corn-growing states and the U.S. Departments of Energy and Agriculture, ethanol fuel and vehicles that use it are increasing. Auto manufacturers began producing flexible fuel cars and pickup trucks that could use ethanol or gasoline, beginning with the 1997 model year. Currently, there are no "after-market" kits that can be used to "convert" a regular gasoline vehicle to run on alcohol fuels.
Dep
Methanol's power, performance and safety have also made it the fuel used in Indianapolis-type race cars since 1965, as well as alcohol-burning funny cars.
Ethanol is a completely different animal. Ethanol, ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol, is a liquid made from corn or other grains, other agricultural products or even biomass waste -- typically anything that contains carbon. Recently, because of support from corn-growing states and the U.S. Departments of Energy and Agriculture, ethanol fuel and vehicles that use it are increasing. Auto manufacturers began producing flexible fuel cars and pickup trucks that could use ethanol or gasoline, beginning with the 1997 model year. Currently, there are no "after-market" kits that can be used to "convert" a regular gasoline vehicle to run on alcohol fuels.
Dep
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
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St. Jude Donor '03,'11
Originally Posted by DJ Dep
. Currently, there are no "after-market" kits that can be used to "convert" a regular gasoline vehicle to run on alcohol fuels.
Dep
Dep
He must mean 15% ethanol 85% gasoline. They have been using a 10% ethanol formulae for 10 - 15 years in some more environmentally consious states like Colorado. You don't have to do anything to your car to burn that mix.
To go to higher concentrations of ethanol would just require a jetting change at the carb, a 1-2 hour project. The problem is that you would burn rich if you filled up with straight gas.
I once ran my Grand National on almost pure ethanol as an experiment. It ran better with a 50-50 gas ethanol and performance dropped off as i approached pure ethanol. I suspect if the correct injectors were used and the computer programmed for ethanol, it would have worked great.
All these scare taticts are coming from the oil companies.
Last edited by turtlevette; Apr 25, 2005 at 10:00 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,444
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
It's Okay to run blends as high as @25% alki to gasoline. The higher your compression the better. Methanol is corrosive to aluminum etc. Ethanol is much nicer to parts.
If i could get it I would run it all the time. In some states I've seen 94 octane ethanol blend. I would just design a motor to use it. Mid 11 compression and big roller cams.
If i could get it I would run it all the time. In some states I've seen 94 octane ethanol blend. I would just design a motor to use it. Mid 11 compression and big roller cams.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,672
Likes: 1
From: New Cumberland PA
Originally Posted by turtlevette
He must mean 15% ethanol 85% gasoline. dropped off as i approached pure ethanol.
I don't think you could burn 85% ethanal without making changes to the carb/fuel injection system. The air/fuel mixture of alcohol and gas are significantly different. Perhaps today's cars with computer controlled fuel injection will increase the amount of fuel needed without throwing out errors when using a 15% alcohol mixture. A carburated engine may need to be rejetted for a proper mixture or it may be on the lean side.
Here in Pennsylvania, it was common years ago(and probably today as well) to have gas with 10% ethanol. I don't think the gas stations are required to post if they are using the 10% blend so it's a crap shoot as to whether its a blend or not. In my opinion all gas pumps should indicate the amount of ethanol, if any, is in the fuel.
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Race Director
Joined: Nov 1999
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From: Foxfield CO 1970 Convertible
Originally Posted by turtlevette
He must mean 15% ethanol 85% gasoline.
Everything I've read indicates that the pushing of ethanol as an alternative fuel makes no sense either from an energy or a financial standpoint. The ethanol lobby is primarily funded by the big farm coops - Archer Daniels Midland, etc. It takes more energy to produce ethanol than it puts out...
abundant North American supplies of natural gas...
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 30,995
Likes: 98
From: Ontario
We have had the 10% ethanol fuel here for many years. A local company (see link) has developed an enzymatic process to derive the alcohol from corn waste.
I use it regularly in my newish Impala without any runnability problems. It is particularly useful in winter when the ethanol serves to replace the bottles of gas-line antifreeze (typically isopropyl alcohol) that I used in the past. The alcohol binds with water/condensation and burns off harmlessly.
I tend not to use it in my Corvette but quite frankly I cannot give anyone a good reason for not doing so. I suspect it would do just fine.
http://www.iogen.ca/
I use it regularly in my newish Impala without any runnability problems. It is particularly useful in winter when the ethanol serves to replace the bottles of gas-line antifreeze (typically isopropyl alcohol) that I used in the past. The alcohol binds with water/condensation and burns off harmlessly.
I tend not to use it in my Corvette but quite frankly I cannot give anyone a good reason for not doing so. I suspect it would do just fine.
http://www.iogen.ca/
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 88,393
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From: eville in
Originally Posted by danno12345
No, it really is 85% Ethanol. They had a big promotion here a few months ago where they were selling it for $0.85 per gallon. You can google for "E85" and find stuff on it.
,,i think my jetting would be off
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,672
Likes: 1
From: New Cumberland PA
I just looked at a couple of links on Google. I see that this stuff is for real. Pesonally, I would use the standard blend. Even at 20 cents a gallon cheaper, I think it will cost more to operate the vehicle due to the decrease in fuel economy.
edit:
Looking at comparison's, running regular gas nets approximately 30% or better fuel milage.
edit:
Looking at comparison's, running regular gas nets approximately 30% or better fuel milage.
Last edited by mandm1200; Apr 25, 2005 at 11:14 AM.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,676
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From: Loveland, CO
The State of Colorado used to just require 10% ethanol or MTBE in the winter months as a pollution control measure. You know what happened to MTBE. With the hassel of twice yearly producing different mixtures, straight gasoline is no longer available here. All the gas has 10% ethanol year round. And then they decided it didn't even help with pollution. i
As Z-man mentioned, ethanol is a political issue from the corn states. Tax credits are required to make it competitive. When you consider the energy required to run the tractors, harvest the corn, distill it into alcohol, it takes more energy to produce than you get out of it. We might as well be burning Jack Daniels. So much for being able to reduce our dependency on foreign oil. We are so easily led astray.
As Z-man mentioned, ethanol is a political issue from the corn states. Tax credits are required to make it competitive. When you consider the energy required to run the tractors, harvest the corn, distill it into alcohol, it takes more energy to produce than you get out of it. We might as well be burning Jack Daniels. So much for being able to reduce our dependency on foreign oil. We are so easily led astray.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,532
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From: Fairview Heights Illinois, near Saint Louis MO, STL C3 Shark
yeah, I meant 85 % ethanol 15% gasoline. I found a LOT of useful information at http://e85fuel.com after I posted here. I havn't seen it yet around metro St Louis, but my inlaws in central missouri accidentally filled up their Chrysler Sebring with it which prompted my initial post (they asked me about it). So turns out it isn't a problem for the occasional "oops" but shouldn't be run continuously because of alcohol's corrosonal tendencies.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
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From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
You can buy anti corrosive stabilizers. All the alki racers use it.
At 85% you would need jets that flow nearly twice as much and you would need higher compression to take advantage of it. alki Race motors also run timing 10 or more degrees higher than gas.
At 85% you would need jets that flow nearly twice as much and you would need higher compression to take advantage of it. alki Race motors also run timing 10 or more degrees higher than gas.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 4,101
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From: NorCal
E85
E85 (or M85 methanol, for that matter) is 85% alcohol, 15% gasoline. Thermal efficiency of E85 is slightly better than half that of gas, and bi-fuel vehicles that can use it (Ford Tauruses are the most common) have a sensor in the fuel line, a different proccessor, and larger injectors as well as stainless steel lines, tank and different fuel components to withstand the corrosion. The only reason they add 15% gas is to make it visible in case of fire. Ever see an Indy car fire? They run 100%, and makes for a very scary fire...
This is really awful stuff in a car not designed or modified to run it. Also, at about half the mileage, you save nothing. You can however run insane compression ratios and it does lower the cylinder temps a great deal. That's why the drag boys with blowers like to run alky.
Hans
This is really awful stuff in a car not designed or modified to run it. Also, at about half the mileage, you save nothing. You can however run insane compression ratios and it does lower the cylinder temps a great deal. That's why the drag boys with blowers like to run alky.
Hans
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 4,101
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From: NorCal
I was heavily involved in the establishment of the ARB M85 spec (not as an engineer, but as one of many reps from user groups) in the '80's and you are correct that it was touted as a start-up aid (fuel manufacturers wanted closer to 50% at one point), but the emissions gains and major liability concerns from the gas station owners assoc. drove the final ARB and EPA formulas.
Alcohol based fuels are a loser, IMHO, mainly due to greatly elevated formaldahyde emissions. CA spent big bucks on infrastructure, but it all faded away when it became apparent there was no easy (read inexpensive) answer to this problem.
Gas rules, baby.
Hans
Alcohol based fuels are a loser, IMHO, mainly due to greatly elevated formaldahyde emissions. CA spent big bucks on infrastructure, but it all faded away when it became apparent there was no easy (read inexpensive) answer to this problem.
Gas rules, baby.
Hans