damned gm welding monkeys
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,872
Likes: 12
From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo
I can install the body in 15 minutes, I'll drop it on when I have the cage, then I'll tack in the cage and will then probably weld the cage to the body and seperate body/cage from the frame. I will make sure all the frame modifications are done when I take that step. Should have that suspension tied up pretty soon.
Also a welded in cage can never be made as tight as a bolt in. You can't get into the tight corners
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 21,953
Likes: 1,445
From: Reno Nevada
2024 C3 of the Year Finalist- Modified
Marck - I like the twin arm setup. I've never really liked the HD trailing arms that i have. I think from pictures I proved that tire loading is actually twisting the trailing arm.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,000
Likes: 22
From: Boulder Creek California
I think he's saying he'll tack weld it to the body so it doesn't move when he pulls the body. Maybe? Once the final weld happens though, like noval said, it's done for good.
I would make sure you can at least lift the body a few inches to do body mounts in the future. Otherwise you'll be kicking yourself 30 years from now!
And don't be too hard on the welding monkeys... they're not very well fed!
-Chris
I would make sure you can at least lift the body a few inches to do body mounts in the future. Otherwise you'll be kicking yourself 30 years from now!
And don't be too hard on the welding monkeys... they're not very well fed!
-Chris
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
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Norval, I will use base plates (a flat piece of steel welded on the frame on which the cage will be welded, this to spread the loads), after welding those on the frame I will start by tack welding the main hoop to the base plates and will continue building up the cage but not fully welding it to the frame. When done I will weld or bolt the cage to the birdcage, I'll probably use bolts. I'm going to use the upper shoulder belt bolt, it's next to the roof hoop and I'm going to use some fabbed up mounting brackets on the a pillars or maybe weld the front hoop to the a pillar (with steel plate with holes oin them just like the nascar boys have), that way I can lift the body and cage as 1 piece after breaking the tack welds on the base plate. I can then have the frame powdercoated. When back from the coaters I can simply remove the powdercoating from the base plate and leave a nice finish because they are sitting higher than the rest of the frame, drop the body/cage back on and final weld it. After welding I'll spray those areas and the cage w/ silver gray to match the powdercoating (I already have the powder)
Last edited by Twin_Turbo; May 1, 2005 at 07:45 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 38,360
Likes: 2,085
From: California
Nice Welding. Similiar to my project
You are the second person I have seen using the front upper adjustable a-arms. I think they are the same ones custom built by Pole Position, that I am planning to order. Are they the pole position units? Are you using stock ball joints and spindles? I see your upper shock tower is similiar to the old Greenwood Bat Cars. I can't tell from the picture but did you align the upper to true the shock to the old spring geometry or was there a specific angle you were looking for? Were you just centering the coilover in the middle of the custom a-arm? What is the installed length of the shock (no compression or rebound)? And what travel did you select on the shock? What is the spring rate are you planning to run in the fronts? Are you still going to tie the towers together with a spreader bar? Looks interesting. Curious about the engineering.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
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Yes, they are from Pole Position. The ball joints are coleman adjustable, the PP arms use the mini GM balljoint pattern, they are not available for the stock corvette upper ball joint pattern (3 bolts/rivets)
True the shock to the old angle?? I don't get what you mean, the shock sits outbord much further for a spring rate closer to the wheel rate. From the side the shock is in line with the ball joint if you draw a line through the balljoint perpendicular to the cross shaft. The lower arm is a stock one w/ adapters for the shock, I still have not finished the custom arms.
The shock is the shortest carrera, I'll have to look up the collapsed length, pro shocks offer shorter ones (5" stroke), these are 7s. Norval has 5" stroke ones. The spring rate will be either 400 or 450, have both and will see what works best, most likely the stiffer ones. The 2 towers will be tied together w/ a spreader bar yes.
True the shock to the old angle?? I don't get what you mean, the shock sits outbord much further for a spring rate closer to the wheel rate. From the side the shock is in line with the ball joint if you draw a line through the balljoint perpendicular to the cross shaft. The lower arm is a stock one w/ adapters for the shock, I still have not finished the custom arms.
The shock is the shortest carrera, I'll have to look up the collapsed length, pro shocks offer shorter ones (5" stroke), these are 7s. Norval has 5" stroke ones. The spring rate will be either 400 or 450, have both and will see what works best, most likely the stiffer ones. The 2 towers will be tied together w/ a spreader bar yes.
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Drifting
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,461
Likes: 2
From: Allen TX
The problem with a welded in cage is the body is no longer going to come off. You are stuck. It means you have to finish the body completely then start on the cage with all the welding problems within the limited space between the floor pan and the frame.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 38,360
Likes: 2,085
From: California
Shock/spring geometry, the comparison to stock.
You answered what I asked. Changing the angle changes alot. I think that us fabricators can greatly improve on what GM engineered. The more radical the angle of the spring, the more spring rate we have to run etc.. If the spring is now placed more over the top (vertical) and connected outwardly on the lower arm, then less spring rate would be needed for the same effect. I sure hope I got that right and not backwards so I am not jumped on here by everyone. It looks good! Thanks for the information on the PP arms and the balljoints. I have the old moog adjustable units which are no longer available. I was looking at the coleman adjustable units and wasn't sure what the dimesions are for possible usage with the stock 1969 spindles. I had Coleman custom made my brake rotors with the Directional Vanes (not the straight type like VBP sells) and have them Gas slotted etc.. I was thinking of fabricating some floating caliber mounts also in the future. They have an interesting catalog. The more I buy from the them, the more I consider sticking a Nascar sticker on my car.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
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Putting the spring closer to the ball joint brings the spring rate closer to the wheel rate, meaning you will need a softer spring to retain the same spring characteristics as stock, the force "arm" is much smaller, the closer the spring to the cross shaft, the larger this arm and the less effective the spring. The more angle you have on the spring, the less effective it becomes as a certain susp. travel results in less spring compression because the angle takesoff some of the vertical component. There's no way to run these shocks straight up but I have the angle as small as I could get it and still clear the arm.
The PP arms are not available for the stock cross shaft bolt spacing, you will have to re-drill your frame to use them (or drill the arms but I didn't feel like doing that)
The ball joints are the same pattern as used on C4 vettes
You will have to order the ball joints w/ the proper reamed angle, I don't remember what it was.
Can you give me some info on your coleman rotors? i assume you have their cast hubs custom made to spec? I want to run some of those also and have not checked the offset on the hat, if you have the proper dimensions could you share them so i can order them also? The front and rear hats are not the same offset.
The PP arms are not available for the stock cross shaft bolt spacing, you will have to re-drill your frame to use them (or drill the arms but I didn't feel like doing that)
The ball joints are the same pattern as used on C4 vettes
You will have to order the ball joints w/ the proper reamed angle, I don't remember what it was.
Can you give me some info on your coleman rotors? i assume you have their cast hubs custom made to spec? I want to run some of those also and have not checked the offset on the hat, if you have the proper dimensions could you share them so i can order them also? The front and rear hats are not the same offset.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,872
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From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Looks like you are in the new shop? The wheels are wide enough but only 16 inch, not much improvement over stock.
Your battery boxes will have to be cut out to make room for the shock. Mine is directly under the frame and just clears the battery boxes.
Looking forward to the work on the cage and the front take off rack and pinion steering.
Your battery boxes will have to be cut out to make room for the shock. Mine is directly under the frame and just clears the battery boxes.
Looking forward to the work on the cage and the front take off rack and pinion steering.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,872
Likes: 12
From: Waterloo ontario Canada
The shock is the shortest carrera, I'll have to look up the collapsed length, pro shocks offer shorter ones (5" stroke), these are 7s. Norval has 5" stroke ones. The spring rate will be either 400 or 450, have both and will see what works best, most likely the stiffer ones. The 2 towers will be tied together w/ a spreader bar yes.
I'm running the 400 pound front springs and 450 pound rears.
I'm running the 400 pound front springs and 450 pound rears.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
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Yes, it's in the new shop.
I purposely went w/ 16" wheels, I like the old style look, I don't care for large wheels at all, especially not on this car. I'm aiming for that GT car look and they all have 16" wheels also.
There will be improvement over stock as far as traction goes, skinny tires don't do it for me. The major improvement is that these wheels are super light and I have 5 of them and several sets of rim halves so I can change the width and offset on them.
I know the battery boxes will have to be cut out and they have less than a week left to live
their days are numbered. I will build a subframe above the differential for the upper struts and toe control inner mounts and will run it down to the rear crossmember (where the pinion mount bolts to)
MY R&P is still in the US, I'll have to get it shipped...will arrange that right away
I purposely went w/ 16" wheels, I like the old style look, I don't care for large wheels at all, especially not on this car. I'm aiming for that GT car look and they all have 16" wheels also.
There will be improvement over stock as far as traction goes, skinny tires don't do it for me. The major improvement is that these wheels are super light and I have 5 of them and several sets of rim halves so I can change the width and offset on them.
I know the battery boxes will have to be cut out and they have less than a week left to live
their days are numbered. I will build a subframe above the differential for the upper struts and toe control inner mounts and will run it down to the rear crossmember (where the pinion mount bolts to)MY R&P is still in the US, I'll have to get it shipped...will arrange that right away
Racer
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 306
Likes: 0
From: WAY SOUTH OF HEAVEN inebriated
Nice work the factory welds look like some one squeezed the crap out of a seagull and i dont know what a mechanic makes but i make 74.00$ an hour as a welder maybe not well fed by choice perhaps 
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,000
Likes: 22
From: Boulder Creek California
turtle, I'm guessing that's a monkey sound?? Yes I was referring to the non-opposable digit creatures, not "real" welders. Damn, I'm going to get the MWU on me for this. (Monkey Welders Union, of course)
-Chris(20 year old mechanic paid $8.50/hr.)
-Chris(20 year old mechanic paid $8.50/hr.)
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,672
Likes: 1
From: New Cumberland PA
I think calling the GM welder a monkey is downright offensive an uncalled for. There is no way a monkey would weld that poor, maybe a blind moneky.
I agree that the welding is poor to say the least. Uncleaned splatter is everywhere. Looks like they striked an acr anywhere they pleased. I wish I would have a welder to finish the job they started.
I agree that the welding is poor to say the least. Uncleaned splatter is everywhere. Looks like they striked an acr anywhere they pleased. I wish I would have a welder to finish the job they started.