Here is a motor for Dep
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
Your engine compares to any run off the mill block from that era, nothing else. It's just wishful thinking that you think there's a fegree of resemblence between the 2, even F1 engines have pistons rods ...and so on, your engine does too. Does that make them similar? There's no need to run 7000rpm for an extended period of time if you're not racing on ovals, who would want an engine that is shot after 500 miles. This whole comparison is just BS.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Well since you won't GIVE a comparison, I'll take your reply as you don't have one. I'm saying the engines used in NASCAR are much closer to what we have than some turbocharged, injected, blown, exotic fuel injected, car from the other racing groups.
It's not RUNNING at 7000 RPM for an extended period (although being able to do so, one would think the durability of that engine would be remarkable). It's being able to reach that RPM, make the power at that RPM, and be able to do it for more than a few times that matters.
At least, for me
Dep
It's not RUNNING at 7000 RPM for an extended period (although being able to do so, one would think the durability of that engine would be remarkable). It's being able to reach that RPM, make the power at that RPM, and be able to do it for more than a few times that matters.
At least, for me
Dep
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
I really don't get what you mean, on one side you're raving on about stock stuff and on the other hand you're talking about high rpms, reliability and making power high up. High rpms call for expensive valve trains with lightweight components and a light reciprocating assembly. Combine that with strong parts that are reliable and you're talking about expensive. Comparing with a race motor is just stupid as those will get rebuilt very often if not after every race (depending on what type of racing you're comparing with), so you want to build a high reving motor that needs a rebuild more frequently than an oil change??? And for what..bragging rights? Good luck with it.
Why didn't I give a comparison..because there is none. It doesn't mean I don't have one because I can't think of it.
Trying to run trick stuff is best left to the high $$$ race teams, trying to run something like that on your own will lead to failures, disappointment and a huge amount of wasted money. Consistency is much better, starting off from a solid basis w/ proven parts and trying to improve on that. I assume you don't have a whole team of engineers backing you up, trying to squeeze the last bit of performance out of parts, removing that little bit of extra weight, running a little bit less oil pressure here...and so on...and then testing to see if it even holds up.
I know you're not interested in street driving and that you want to use your car on the track exclusively,so what do you want, a drag car that does 8K rpm ???
Why didn't I give a comparison..because there is none. It doesn't mean I don't have one because I can't think of it.
Trying to run trick stuff is best left to the high $$$ race teams, trying to run something like that on your own will lead to failures, disappointment and a huge amount of wasted money. Consistency is much better, starting off from a solid basis w/ proven parts and trying to improve on that. I assume you don't have a whole team of engineers backing you up, trying to squeeze the last bit of performance out of parts, removing that little bit of extra weight, running a little bit less oil pressure here...and so on...and then testing to see if it even holds up.
I know you're not interested in street driving and that you want to use your car on the track exclusively,so what do you want, a drag car that does 8K rpm ???
Last edited by Twin_Turbo; Jun 11, 2005 at 08:26 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo
I really don't get what you mean, on one side you're raving on about stock stuff and on the other hand you're talking about high rpms, reliability and making power high up. High rpms call for expensive valve trains with lightweight components and a light reciprocating assembly. Combine that with strong parts that are reliable and you're talking about expensive. Comparing with a race motor is just stupid as those will get rebuilt very often if not after every race (depending on what type of racing you're comparing with), so you want to build a high reving motor that needs a rebuild more frequently than an oil change??? And for what..bragging rights? Good luck with it.
Why didn't I give a comparison..because there is none. It doesn't mean I don't have one because I can't think of it.
Trying to run trick stuff is best left to the high $$$ race teams, trying to run something like that on your own will lead to failures, disappointment and a huge amount of wasted money. Consistency is much better, starting off from a solid basis w/ proven parts and trying to improve on that. I assume you don't have a whole team of engineers backing you up, trying to squeeze the last bit of performance out of parts, removing that little bit of extra weight, running a little bit less oil pressure here...and so on...and then testing to see if it even holds up.
I know you're not interested in street driving and that you want to use your car on the track exclusively,so what do you want, a drag car that does 8K rpm ???
Why didn't I give a comparison..because there is none. It doesn't mean I don't have one because I can't think of it.
Trying to run trick stuff is best left to the high $$$ race teams, trying to run something like that on your own will lead to failures, disappointment and a huge amount of wasted money. Consistency is much better, starting off from a solid basis w/ proven parts and trying to improve on that. I assume you don't have a whole team of engineers backing you up, trying to squeeze the last bit of performance out of parts, removing that little bit of extra weight, running a little bit less oil pressure here...and so on...and then testing to see if it even holds up.
I know you're not interested in street driving and that you want to use your car on the track exclusively,so what do you want, a drag car that does 8K rpm ???
"High rpms call for expensive valve trains with lightweight components and a light reciprocating assembly." If that were the case, how did the STOCK valve trains on the (get ready for a long list) Z-28, L-88,
427 FE, 426 Stage 3 Wedge, 409 Chevy, 340 6-pack Mopar, Boss 302, L-72, and a LOT more STOCK engines reach high RPMs with FACTORY non-roller, non-trick parts????
This whole notion that you have to spend a fortune in store-bought valve train gizmos to reach high RPM is something the AFTERMARKET, along with the various merchandising magazines (Hot Rod, Super Chevy, etc) have spawned to sell the uninformed hot rodder a bunch of expensive gear. Duplicate what the factory installed and you can achieve the same results.
I agree 100% that "trick stuff" like roller rockers does NOT belong on a street engine. Heck, many so-called "strip" engines can do without it too. Yes...I would like a drag car that can do 8000 RPM. That would be nice
. But I'm NOT going to spend a fortune in gold bullion to GET that level of performance. The whole Winston Cup engine comment concerned ONLY the fact they were able to get a LOT of horsepower out of only 358 cubic inches. I KNOW they spend a fortune on other stuff too. But the cubic inches REAMAIN 358. Yeah...the rules say they have to stay there. But I rememeber when the rules DIDN'T say they had to stay there. And the engines they used BEFORE the 358 mandate were big block engines MADE for high RPM. But they didn't necessarily make MORE horsepower than what is in the 358. They just didn't require as much effort to make the power they made. I STILL don't think it's necesary to spend GOBS of money on supersize Stroker Ace engines to get a smallblock to make more horsepower than anyone on here could possibly hope to use.
Dep
Race Director
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 16,945
Likes: 9
how did they do it, hmm..very stiff valve springs, mushroom lifters... and what rpm did they reach w/ those 7000?
Does your stock block take mushroom lifters without machining (maybe a little trick stuff there??)
Then there's the bottom end, revs kill bottom ends, rod big ends stretch, cranks can break....did they use run off the mill parts, the same basic stuff in any engine or did they use stuff that was considered trick in those days?
Last time I checked the nascar boys were running higher than 7000. Nowadays 7000 isn't considered high rpm now is it.
The cubes remain 358 yes but their volumetric efficiency and cylinder pressures are much higher than on our cars, Their valvetrain & head/intake/carb combos are the result of extensive testing and a lot of trial and error, why do you think there are so many cup parts on ebay? Those just didn't work, most of them were tested and found not to be satisfactory, that makes them useless for all but the right application, there's more to heads than port flow, port velocity and swirl are also important and those cup ehads and intakes are specifically designed for a certain track.
They run their water and oil systems in such a way that they can run both semi independent in the temperature range they want so that the oil doesn't get too hot yet the water stays in a nice range (hotter running engines make more power), then there's the dry sump oiling system w/ rocker box scavenging and other tricks, they don't have a cloud of diseased dyno goo spinning around there...not like what an ordinary engine has, then there's the cassidium coated pins for wear resistance in a bare steel pin bore, stuff like oil squirters for the bottoms of the pistons and what not more, the list is near endless.
Also, the 358s are what could be considered as a destroked large bore engine, the piston speeds really are up there (wear coating on the pistons) the rings are pretty thin, the pistons are light as are the rods, cranks gun drilled, knife edged, coated w/ oil shedding polymers...and so on and so on. An awful lot of effort to get those numbers and hardly reproducable for the average backyard mechanic.
I'm not saying it's not possible to reach 7000 rpm with parts that are now considered pretty much basic but will it be reliable in the long run and more important will it be faster than a more ordinary combo that runs consistent day in day out....
Does your stock block take mushroom lifters without machining (maybe a little trick stuff there??)
Then there's the bottom end, revs kill bottom ends, rod big ends stretch, cranks can break....did they use run off the mill parts, the same basic stuff in any engine or did they use stuff that was considered trick in those days?
Last time I checked the nascar boys were running higher than 7000. Nowadays 7000 isn't considered high rpm now is it.
The cubes remain 358 yes but their volumetric efficiency and cylinder pressures are much higher than on our cars, Their valvetrain & head/intake/carb combos are the result of extensive testing and a lot of trial and error, why do you think there are so many cup parts on ebay? Those just didn't work, most of them were tested and found not to be satisfactory, that makes them useless for all but the right application, there's more to heads than port flow, port velocity and swirl are also important and those cup ehads and intakes are specifically designed for a certain track.
They run their water and oil systems in such a way that they can run both semi independent in the temperature range they want so that the oil doesn't get too hot yet the water stays in a nice range (hotter running engines make more power), then there's the dry sump oiling system w/ rocker box scavenging and other tricks, they don't have a cloud of diseased dyno goo spinning around there...not like what an ordinary engine has, then there's the cassidium coated pins for wear resistance in a bare steel pin bore, stuff like oil squirters for the bottoms of the pistons and what not more, the list is near endless.
Also, the 358s are what could be considered as a destroked large bore engine, the piston speeds really are up there (wear coating on the pistons) the rings are pretty thin, the pistons are light as are the rods, cranks gun drilled, knife edged, coated w/ oil shedding polymers...and so on and so on. An awful lot of effort to get those numbers and hardly reproducable for the average backyard mechanic.
I'm not saying it's not possible to reach 7000 rpm with parts that are now considered pretty much basic but will it be reliable in the long run and more important will it be faster than a more ordinary combo that runs consistent day in day out....
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 65,492
Likes: 230
From: Orange Park Florida
Decades ago, us hotrodders in the Wash DC area met up with an engine builder....last name was Jones, forget his first name, we all called him the 'old man'....he was in Laural Maryland just off rt1 there for ages.....he was like 80 when we all met up with him, and had a SON by a much younger woman, kid was like 10 at the time....
well he built engines for NASCAR racers back in the daze, actually he had a Masters in ME....worked n WW2 at the Naval Gun foundry/factory in SE Navy Yard, making LARGE battleship guns, among other famous projects....retired and started building engines at NIGHT.....we thought that very strange...but one comment he made once told the tale....because.....truck on the road would upset his balance gear, and he demanded much tighter tolerances....his engine had the curious habit of making much more power and lasting longer than most other bears in the pack....he never would say just exactly HOW or WHY that was so, just the evidence....
course he had ever damn piece of gear in machine shop heaven that one could imagine.....and used for the most part, mostly stock stuff upon assy.....mostly, to a certain degree....it took him FOREVER to do an engine....well over 8 months in most cases, didn't want to wait?? he just didn't care one twit...lotsa clients...
Last I heard he was forced outta his shop by landlord/property values, moved to Baltimore, and faded on to glory....
GENE
well he built engines for NASCAR racers back in the daze, actually he had a Masters in ME....worked n WW2 at the Naval Gun foundry/factory in SE Navy Yard, making LARGE battleship guns, among other famous projects....retired and started building engines at NIGHT.....we thought that very strange...but one comment he made once told the tale....because.....truck on the road would upset his balance gear, and he demanded much tighter tolerances....his engine had the curious habit of making much more power and lasting longer than most other bears in the pack....he never would say just exactly HOW or WHY that was so, just the evidence....
course he had ever damn piece of gear in machine shop heaven that one could imagine.....and used for the most part, mostly stock stuff upon assy.....mostly, to a certain degree....it took him FOREVER to do an engine....well over 8 months in most cases, didn't want to wait?? he just didn't care one twit...lotsa clients...
Last I heard he was forced outta his shop by landlord/property values, moved to Baltimore, and faded on to glory....
GENE
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
TT: I LOVE when people ask "how did they do it?" . You KNOW what website I'm gonna refer you to...
http://www.z28camaro.com/oldrel.html
VIN number 124378N411100
Build Date 04A (first week of April)
Color Corvette Bronze
Interior Code 712, black standard
Car Shipper Shipped on April 11, 1968 to Ammon R. Smith Auto Company, York, PA
Engine Data Cubic Inches, 302
Cylinder heads #3917291, completely stock, no porting allowed!
Stock rocker arms & valve springs
Intake 302 aluminum intake, casting #3917610
Carburetor Holley, #4053, 780 CFM 4bbl
Camshaft Crane, .480 inches lift, 272 degrees duration, valve lash, .016-.016
Pistons GM 302, .030" oversize
Horsepower 456 @7700rpm
Rear Tires 9" x 30.0" Hoosier's
Rear axle & ratio 12-bolt, 5.57 Richmond Pro Gears
Clutch 10 inch, three finger from Advance Clutch Technology
Shift Points 8200 RPM
BEST ET 10.80 @122.30mph
Okay...that ain't NASCAR, but it does show that STOCK components can be made to work VERY well. Is the Old Reliable "streetable". Well I can think of better cars to pick up groceries with. Then again, I can think of a LOT of cars more suited to pick up groceries than a hopped up C3 Vette.
"Also, the 358s are what could be considered as a destroked large bore engine..."
Well this is news to me. My understanding was the Ford engine was based on a 351 Cleveland, the Chevy on a 350 smallblock, and the Dodge engine is the only one that is a "custom" job.
Dep
. You KNOW what website I'm gonna refer you to...http://www.z28camaro.com/oldrel.html
VIN number 124378N411100
Build Date 04A (first week of April)
Color Corvette Bronze
Interior Code 712, black standard
Car Shipper Shipped on April 11, 1968 to Ammon R. Smith Auto Company, York, PA
Engine Data Cubic Inches, 302
Cylinder heads #3917291, completely stock, no porting allowed!
Stock rocker arms & valve springs
Intake 302 aluminum intake, casting #3917610
Carburetor Holley, #4053, 780 CFM 4bbl
Camshaft Crane, .480 inches lift, 272 degrees duration, valve lash, .016-.016
Pistons GM 302, .030" oversize
Horsepower 456 @7700rpm
Rear Tires 9" x 30.0" Hoosier's
Rear axle & ratio 12-bolt, 5.57 Richmond Pro Gears
Clutch 10 inch, three finger from Advance Clutch Technology
Shift Points 8200 RPM
BEST ET 10.80 @122.30mph
Okay...that ain't NASCAR, but it does show that STOCK components can be made to work VERY well. Is the Old Reliable "streetable". Well I can think of better cars to pick up groceries with. Then again, I can think of a LOT of cars more suited to pick up groceries than a hopped up C3 Vette.
"Also, the 358s are what could be considered as a destroked large bore engine..."
Well this is news to me. My understanding was the Ford engine was based on a 351 Cleveland, the Chevy on a 350 smallblock, and the Dodge engine is the only one that is a "custom" job.
Dep
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,503
Likes: 1,511
From: Little Rock AR
Originally Posted by DJ Dep
TT: I LOVE when people ask "how did they do it?" . You KNOW what website I'm gonna refer you to...
http://www.z28camaro.com/oldrel.html
VIN number 124378N411100
Build Date 04A (first week of April)
Color Corvette Bronze
Interior Code 712, black standard
Car Shipper Shipped on April 11, 1968 to Ammon R. Smith Auto Company, York, PA
Engine Data Cubic Inches, 302
Cylinder heads #3917291, completely stock, no porting allowed!
Stock rocker arms & valve springs
Intake 302 aluminum intake, casting #3917610
Carburetor Holley, #4053, 780 CFM 4bbl
Camshaft Crane, .480 inches lift, 272 degrees duration, valve lash, .016-.016
Pistons GM 302, .030" oversize
Horsepower 456 @7700rpm
Rear Tires 9" x 30.0" Hoosier's
Rear axle & ratio 12-bolt, 5.57 Richmond Pro Gears
Clutch 10 inch, three finger from Advance Clutch Technology
Shift Points 8200 RPM
BEST ET 10.80 @122.30mph
Okay...that ain't NASCAR, but it does show that STOCK components can be made to work VERY well. Is the Old Reliable "streetable". Well I can think of better cars to pick up groceries with. Then again, I can think of a LOT of cars more suited to pick up groceries than a hopped up C3 Vette.
"Also, the 358s are what could be considered as a destroked large bore engine..."
Well this is news to me. My understanding was the Ford engine was based on a 351 Cleveland, the Chevy on a 350 smallblock, and the Dodge engine is the only one that is a "custom" job.
Dep
. You KNOW what website I'm gonna refer you to...http://www.z28camaro.com/oldrel.html
VIN number 124378N411100
Build Date 04A (first week of April)
Color Corvette Bronze
Interior Code 712, black standard
Car Shipper Shipped on April 11, 1968 to Ammon R. Smith Auto Company, York, PA
Engine Data Cubic Inches, 302
Cylinder heads #3917291, completely stock, no porting allowed!
Stock rocker arms & valve springs
Intake 302 aluminum intake, casting #3917610
Carburetor Holley, #4053, 780 CFM 4bbl
Camshaft Crane, .480 inches lift, 272 degrees duration, valve lash, .016-.016
Pistons GM 302, .030" oversize
Horsepower 456 @7700rpm
Rear Tires 9" x 30.0" Hoosier's
Rear axle & ratio 12-bolt, 5.57 Richmond Pro Gears
Clutch 10 inch, three finger from Advance Clutch Technology
Shift Points 8200 RPM
BEST ET 10.80 @122.30mph
Okay...that ain't NASCAR, but it does show that STOCK components can be made to work VERY well. Is the Old Reliable "streetable". Well I can think of better cars to pick up groceries with. Then again, I can think of a LOT of cars more suited to pick up groceries than a hopped up C3 Vette.
"Also, the 358s are what could be considered as a destroked large bore engine..."
Well this is news to me. My understanding was the Ford engine was based on a 351 Cleveland, the Chevy on a 350 smallblock, and the Dodge engine is the only one that is a "custom" job.
Dep
This is me, Mark. The guy with a DZ-302 in his garage that actualy gets driven to 7000 RPM regularly. I am obviously a 302 fan as well.
No offense intended but...
Go to that web site and ask Jerry if he could go faster with a bigger engine. Ask him if a 327 would be a better, faster engine. Post his answer. We are all waiting with baited anticipation.
Just trying to help here. Jerry is an awesome guy and I am sure he will be happy to discuss this. -Mark.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Originally Posted by stingr69
Dep,
This is me, Mark. The guy with a DZ-302 in his garage that actualy gets driven to 7000 RPM regularly. I am obviously a 302 fan as well.
No offense intended but...
Go to that web site and ask Jerry if he could go faster with a bigger engine. Ask him if a 327 would be a better, faster engine. Post his answer. We are all waiting with baited anticipation. Just trying to help here. Jerry is an awesome guy and I am sure he will be happy to discuss this.
-Mark.
This is me, Mark. The guy with a DZ-302 in his garage that actualy gets driven to 7000 RPM regularly. I am obviously a 302 fan as well.
No offense intended but...
Go to that web site and ask Jerry if he could go faster with a bigger engine. Ask him if a 327 would be a better, faster engine. Post his answer. We are all waiting with baited anticipation.
Just trying to help here. Jerry is an awesome guy and I am sure he will be happy to discuss this. -Mark.
Not sure a 327 would be all that much better, but probably would. I just DON'T want to follow the herd and KILL the RPM that the smallblock Chevy is so famous for. I do NOT drive on the street. I do NOT need a torker truck motor. I want to take it up to 7000+, DUMP the clutch (no auto), and go through the gears with one of those "crashbox" 4-speed transmissions. THAT is racing a smallblock for me.
Dep
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Originally Posted by Twin_Turbo
Why not go shopping @ falkoner and buy one of those Champcar engines,,,,
http://www.falconerengines.com/
Those motors look AWESOME!!! But a tad rich for my little money tree.
Plus I'd have NO idea how to work on one if it needed a tune up
God I bet they sound wild!!!
Dep
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Originally Posted by MsVetteMan
Dayum........what's wrong DEP? You don't like? Man, I spent all night working on that......... 
Dep
