Top speed C-3
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,231
Likes: 7
From: Fort Pierce Florida
The admins are as bad as the parents that got GM to remove the commercial with the boy and girl jumping the C6. Wouldn't it be more productive to discourage people in the thread from testing top speeds on public roads?
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 0
From: Berlin
Originally Posted by SpyderD
2.) You just have no idea of the wind resistance at speed. Most modern cars are drag limited, and these are with modern wind tunnel designs. You can't just figure gearing and horsepower into the figure, you have to add wind friction which of course increases exponentially as you go faster. It's an overwhelming obstacle and that is the reason very few cars are able to go over 130 or 140 without serious horsepower or design modifications. Try walking into a 30 MPH headwind and see what I mean. Headwinds even significantly effect jet speeds at 30,000 ft.
Also, most cars today are not drag limited. Almost all German sedans (other than VW's) imported to this country are electronically limited to 155, for example. And almost all with more than 200 hp reach that speed. These cars do have excellent drag coefficients, but the point is that good cars today do not need "serious horsepower" to crack 140.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20,216
Likes: 4
From: Smile, it's just the internet.
Please don't include me in the "mine is bigger than yours" or "they were clearly exaggerating in that thread". I never posted in it... I've never had my Vette above about 100, and it was scary at that speed. Mine's got the HP, gearing, and tires to do it, but not the chassis.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,053
Likes: 4
St. Jude Donor '03,'11
Originally Posted by aharte
Actually, most of us do know what air resistance is. The force does not increase exponentially, but with the square of the speed (power increases with the cube). a square is an exponent of 2 or am i a dumb a. How can force increase as a square and power as a cube, it don't make any sense
When you say "you can't just figure gearing and horsepower," what do you think the power numbers people are throwing around go into? People are calculating drag forces, and finding out how much power it takes to exceed them. i didn't see anybody here doing those kinds of calcs There are other losses, but these are much smaller (not necessarily insignificant, though).
Also, most cars today are not drag limited. Almost all German sedans (other than VW's) imported to this country are electronically limited to 155, for example. And almost all with more than 200 hp reach that speed. These cars do have excellent drag coefficients, but the point is that good cars today do not need "serious horsepower" to crack 140. were weren't talking good cars we were talking C3s
When you say "you can't just figure gearing and horsepower," what do you think the power numbers people are throwing around go into? People are calculating drag forces, and finding out how much power it takes to exceed them. i didn't see anybody here doing those kinds of calcs There are other losses, but these are much smaller (not necessarily insignificant, though).
Also, most cars today are not drag limited. Almost all German sedans (other than VW's) imported to this country are electronically limited to 155, for example. And almost all with more than 200 hp reach that speed. These cars do have excellent drag coefficients, but the point is that good cars today do not need "serious horsepower" to crack 140. were weren't talking good cars we were talking C3s
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 0
From: Berlin
Originally Posted by turtlevette
a square is an exponent of 2 or am i a dumb a. How can force increase as a square and power as a cube, it don't make any sense
As for the difference between force and power, you need to look up how power is defined. It is the rate at which something is doing work. If a constant force F acts over a distance x (in the direction of F), then W=Fx. The rate of change of this (power) is then Fv. So if the force is proportional to v^2, the power is proportional to v^3.
This is also why when an engine's power output is equal to its torque (analogous to force) times its angular velocity (analogous to linear velocity).
i didn't see anybody here doing those kinds of calcs
were weren't talking good cars we were talking C3s
. Dep was trying to claim that even modern cars have trouble going 140 though.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Originally Posted by aharte
Point taken . Dep was trying to claim that even modern cars have trouble going 140 though.
. Dep was trying to claim that even modern cars have trouble going 140 though.
I cam think of maybe two.
A Viper and a C6. Maybe.
Dep
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Pro
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 690
Likes: 1
From: near Memphis TN
Originally Posted by aharte
Actually, most of us do know what air resistance is. The force does not increase exponentially, but with the square of the speed (power increases with the cube). When you say "you can't just figure gearing and horsepower," what do you think the power numbers people are throwing around go into? People are calculating drag forces, and finding out how much power it takes to exceed them. There are other losses, but these are much smaller (not necessarily insignificant, though).
Also, most cars today are not drag limited. Almost all German sedans (other than VW's) imported to this country are electronically limited to 155, for example. And almost all with more than 200 hp reach that speed. These cars do have excellent drag coefficients, but the point is that good cars today do not need "serious horsepower" to crack 140.
Also, most cars today are not drag limited. Almost all German sedans (other than VW's) imported to this country are electronically limited to 155, for example. And almost all with more than 200 hp reach that speed. These cars do have excellent drag coefficients, but the point is that good cars today do not need "serious horsepower" to crack 140.
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 0
From: Berlin
Originally Posted by DJ Dep
List all the modern US-made cars that can go over 140. It should be a pretty short list.
I cam think of maybe two.
A Viper and a C6. Maybe.
I cam think of maybe two.
A Viper and a C6. Maybe.
. You must be smoking some good stuff man. American cars currently in production that can break 140 include (I'm not going to try to make a comprehensive list):
GM: Corvette, GTO, CTS (base), STS (base), XLR (base)
Ford: Mustang (base), GT
Chrysler/Dodge: Viper, 300C SRT-8, Crossfire (base), Neon SRT-4
Besides, American cars generally aren't engineered for high speed use (other than things like Vettes). Acceleration and economy are more practical in this country. Also, most American cars don't fit under my definition of "good."
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,434
Likes: 0
St. Jude Donor '07
Originally Posted by DJ Dep
List all the modern US-made cars that can go over 140. It should be a pretty short list.
I cam think of maybe two.
A Viper and a C6. Maybe.
Dep
I cam think of maybe two.
A Viper and a C6. Maybe.
Dep
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 0
From: Berlin
Originally Posted by SpyderD
I'm not going to even touch the physics of exponential increase, i'll take your word for it. But I'm not sure 200HP will crack 155, I'm not sure 250HP will do it. I can't do that with my 220 HP Eclipse and the crazier ricer boys that own these cars can't do it (and if they could rest assured you would here about it in the associated ricer forums). The Eclipse is drag limited, it just needs more HP, alot more HP, to overcome wind friction. On the other hand I've been in cars that are speed limited - Pontiac Grand Am's, my wife's Saturn. No way those would make much over 110 MPH in any event.
As an example, our C3's actually generate much less drag than RT/10 Vipers! Yet they still go pretty fast.
Cruising
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by DJ Dep
First off it takes MORE than just power and gearing to go over 140.
If it didn't, you would see SUVs and other powerful vehicles going that fast. I think too many are arguing theory over practicality. You can NOT just bolt in tons of horsepower and expect to go over 140 AND SURVIVE.
My comparison to the bike involved aerodynamics. The frontal cross section of the Suzuki Hayabusa is much SMALLER than any other high performance motorcycle, and it was designed that way from the beginning.
Dep
If it didn't, you would see SUVs and other powerful vehicles going that fast. I think too many are arguing theory over practicality. You can NOT just bolt in tons of horsepower and expect to go over 140 AND SURVIVE.
My comparison to the bike involved aerodynamics. The frontal cross section of the Suzuki Hayabusa is much SMALLER than any other high performance motorcycle, and it was designed that way from the beginning.
Dep
While both bikes had claimed aerodynamic advantages, both bikes reached roughly the same speed about 186-190 which the manufactures agreed as the top speed (300 kph or 186) limit for bikes from that point on. Since then, most liter bikes 990 cc and above can reach the preset top speed of 186 without the "claimed aerodynamics" and GP bikes which are much smaller and less stable (faster handling) go 215+ with only 240 horsepower. New R1's, ZX, GSXR have 180+ hp before mods.
A lot of people also point to the top speeds of similar cars and bikes at the salt flats, but remember that these cars would have gone much faster without tire slippage from overpowering the salt base which they race on.
Paul
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Originally Posted by evil-paul
You are wrong about the hyabusa reaching the speeds it did/does due to aerodynamics. It reached that speed on sheer power due to the size of the motor. The 1300cc motor (150 hp)was the biggest at the time and the hyabusa was designed for outright top speed with the only rival the 100cc smaller ZX12. By designed I mean they had a longer wheelbase for enhanced stability at the higher speed. The longer wheelbase makes the bike more stable, but that makes it slower in the twisty's,
While both bikes had claimed aerodynamic advantages, both bikes reached roughly the same speed about 186-190 which the manufactures agreed as the top speed (300 kph or 186) limit for bikes from that point on. Since then, most liter bikes 990 cc and above can reach the preset top speed of 186 without the "claimed aerodynamics" and GP bikes which are much smaller and less stable (faster handling) go 215+ with only 240 horsepower. New R1's, ZX, GSXR have 180+ hp before mods.
A lot of people also point to the top speeds of similar cars and bikes at the salt flats, but remember that these cars would have gone much faster without tire slippage from overpowering the salt base which they race on.
Paul
While both bikes had claimed aerodynamic advantages, both bikes reached roughly the same speed about 186-190 which the manufactures agreed as the top speed (300 kph or 186) limit for bikes from that point on. Since then, most liter bikes 990 cc and above can reach the preset top speed of 186 without the "claimed aerodynamics" and GP bikes which are much smaller and less stable (faster handling) go 215+ with only 240 horsepower. New R1's, ZX, GSXR have 180+ hp before mods.
A lot of people also point to the top speeds of similar cars and bikes at the salt flats, but remember that these cars would have gone much faster without tire slippage from overpowering the salt base which they race on.
Paul
I LOVE when people flap their gums when they know NOTHING about what they are talking about and do ZERO research into the topic. That seems to be a common characteristic on this forum.
Armchair experts...gotta love 'em. They believe advertising hype like it's God's very words and come up with their own conclusions based on faulty opinions. Now for the TRUTH...
Read this and LEARN:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0106_aero/
Dep
Cruising
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by DJ Dep
The above is pure
I LOVE when people flap their gums when they know NOTHING about what they are talking about and do ZERO research into the topic. That seems to be a common characteristic on this forum.
Armchair experts...gotta love 'em. They believe advertising hype like it's God's very words and come up with their own conclusions based on faulty opinions. Now for the TRUTH...
Read this and LEARN:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0106_aero/
Dep
I LOVE when people flap their gums when they know NOTHING about what they are talking about and do ZERO research into the topic. That seems to be a common characteristic on this forum.
Armchair experts...gotta love 'em. They believe advertising hype like it's God's very words and come up with their own conclusions based on faulty opinions. Now for the TRUTH...
Read this and LEARN:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0106_aero/
Dep
Thanks for the "current" info. If you were not so busy flapping your gums you would have noticed that article was written in 2001, glad nothing has changed in your world, but the facts remain in the real world the hyabusa is just another has been that will be stomped by any current liter bike. Oh and from your article apparently written by "GOD" since it contains "facts" not "opinions" states exactly what I said that the hyabusa requires roughly 150 HP to reach it's top speed ---
"Roughly 90 percent of an engine's power is used to overcome aerodynamic drag at high speeds, while the remaining 10 percent works against rolling resistance. The exact rolling resistance is difficult to determine, and the relative efficiency of each bike's ram-air system is also unknown. But it is possible to calculate a power vs. speed graph using the drag figures measured in the wind tunnel (see above). To achieve 187.5 mph, the Hayabusa needs 147.6 horsepower to overcome drag alone; the 12R needs 161.3 horsepower for the same speed. However, using the wind tunnel data, test weights, our road-test dyno figures for horsepower and a rolling-resistance figure, Cooper calculated that the ZX-12R would have a maximum speed of 187.0 mph and the Hayabusa 187.7 mph."
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6
From: Silver City NM
St. Jude Donor '05-'07
Originally Posted by evil-paul
Thanks for the "current" info. If you were not so busy flapping your gums you would have noticed that article was written in 2001, glad nothing has changed in your world, but the facts remain in the real world the hyabusa is just another has been that will be stomped by any current liter bike. Oh and from your article apparently written by "GOD" since it contains "facts" not "opinions" states exactly what I said that the hyabusa requires roughly 150 HP to reach it's top speed ---
"Roughly 90 percent of an engine's power is used to overcome aerodynamic drag at high speeds, while the remaining 10 percent works against rolling resistance. The exact rolling resistance is difficult to determine, and the relative efficiency of each bike's ram-air system is also unknown. But it is possible to calculate a power vs. speed graph using the drag figures measured in the wind tunnel (see above). To achieve 187.5 mph, the Hayabusa needs 147.6 horsepower to overcome drag alone; the 12R needs 161.3 horsepower for the same speed. However, using the wind tunnel data, test weights, our road-test dyno figures for horsepower and a rolling-resistance figure, Cooper calculated that the ZX-12R would have a maximum speed of 187.0 mph and the Hayabusa 187.7 mph."
"Roughly 90 percent of an engine's power is used to overcome aerodynamic drag at high speeds, while the remaining 10 percent works against rolling resistance. The exact rolling resistance is difficult to determine, and the relative efficiency of each bike's ram-air system is also unknown. But it is possible to calculate a power vs. speed graph using the drag figures measured in the wind tunnel (see above). To achieve 187.5 mph, the Hayabusa needs 147.6 horsepower to overcome drag alone; the 12R needs 161.3 horsepower for the same speed. However, using the wind tunnel data, test weights, our road-test dyno figures for horsepower and a rolling-resistance figure, Cooper calculated that the ZX-12R would have a maximum speed of 187.0 mph and the Hayabusa 187.7 mph."
Dep
Race Director
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 16,978
Likes: 7
From: In Dreams There Is Truth Ohio
Originally Posted by flood
"ANY thread that endorses breaking the law will get locked or removed."
I think thats should get locked or removed. I know this is stupid, but removing an AIR pump from a car is technically breaking the law.:
I think thats should get locked or removed. I know this is stupid, but removing an AIR pump from a car is technically breaking the law.:
That's why I killed that thread
Originally Posted by flood
Oh im also suprised this hasnt been locked 
