Electric fans for cooling engine
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 450
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From: Fredericksburg VA
Originally Posted by big_G
Just pondering.....how well would the fan switch in the radiator work if there were NO coolant in the radiator?...
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 213
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From: Chapel Hill NC
Originally Posted by WayneLBurnham
....and to think all this time all I had to do was make a housing for my flexfan and I wouldn't have to drop $3K on an 8-71 setup!
....now try the OTHER med....
Just because it could take 5-10 hp to run does not mean it really does or that it uses it effectively. Mechanical fans do essentially nothing past a certain relatively low rpm and they do even less at low rpm.
I, and anyone else, verified that the first time at low speed after a mechanical to electric fan switch. Are you honestly so arrogant you think the rest of us have so much money we change to these things just for something to waste money on? I was extremely reluctant to switch to electric - I don't like the reliability issues of electric vs. flywheel - but it greatly improved my cooling (although it did not solve the heating issue entirely.)
Just because it's attached to a belt doesn't mean it delivers some huge amount of air flow. I wouldn't be surprised that the water pump pulls the most of the power off of that belt anyhow.
Incidentally, you'd probably be hugely interested to know when the 28V and 42V system changes were all being discussed for upcoming GM models to be (like the C6) one key option was electric braking and another was electric supercharging It didn't occur, yet, so we don't know how well that works....
....now try the OTHER med....
Just because it could take 5-10 hp to run does not mean it really does or that it uses it effectively. Mechanical fans do essentially nothing past a certain relatively low rpm and they do even less at low rpm.
I, and anyone else, verified that the first time at low speed after a mechanical to electric fan switch. Are you honestly so arrogant you think the rest of us have so much money we change to these things just for something to waste money on? I was extremely reluctant to switch to electric - I don't like the reliability issues of electric vs. flywheel - but it greatly improved my cooling (although it did not solve the heating issue entirely.)
Just because it's attached to a belt doesn't mean it delivers some huge amount of air flow. I wouldn't be surprised that the water pump pulls the most of the power off of that belt anyhow.
Incidentally, you'd probably be hugely interested to know when the 28V and 42V system changes were all being discussed for upcoming GM models to be (like the C6) one key option was electric braking and another was electric supercharging It didn't occur, yet, so we don't know how well that works....
Now I'm confused; I never tried to compare a cooling fan to a blower. I hope you aren't talking to me!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,752
Likes: 4
From: Austin Texas
EXACTLY!!! soccer794...I was making the point that if the switch was in the radiator, and there were no coolant in the radiator, (maybe a leak) ...the fans would never come on....oops, there goes another head gasket....
Racer
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
From: Dallas County Texas
Nonono...not responding to you guy....but to the
lead MA twin.....
....he/they was/were tryin' (poorly) to JBS me....I mean....
No, I enjoy the discussion - you may be wedded to a few points or pet theories like anyone else with character, but you do it all with reason and are after the same thing as all of us - to repair, perfect, improve or evolve an older design with newer technology and thus make something better than either.
Keep at it - I know I will....if lob a mudpie every now and then, it's thrown underhand!
BTW, did ya like my jibe about you thinking the radiator was just a nifty place to hold fans and mount a temperature sender? I LOVED that one!!!
....he/they was/were tryin' (poorly) to JBS me....I mean....
No, I enjoy the discussion - you may be wedded to a few points or pet theories like anyone else with character, but you do it all with reason and are after the same thing as all of us - to repair, perfect, improve or evolve an older design with newer technology and thus make something better than either.
Keep at it - I know I will....if lob a mudpie every now and then, it's thrown underhand!
BTW, did ya like my jibe about you thinking the radiator was just a nifty place to hold fans and mount a temperature sender? I LOVED that one!!!
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,872
Likes: 12
From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Originally Posted by WayneLBurnham
lead MA twin.....
....he/they was/were tryin' (poorly) to JBS me....I mean....
No, I enjoy the discussion - you may be wedded to a few points or pet theories like anyone else with character, but you do it all with reason and are after the same thing as all of us - to repair, perfect, improve or evolve an older design with newer technology and thus make something better than either.
Keep at it - I know I will....if lob a mudpie every now and then, it's thrown underhand!
BTW, did ya like my jibe about you thinking the radiator was just a nifty place to hold fans and mount a temperature sender? I LOVED that one!!!
....he/they was/were tryin' (poorly) to JBS me....I mean....
No, I enjoy the discussion - you may be wedded to a few points or pet theories like anyone else with character, but you do it all with reason and are after the same thing as all of us - to repair, perfect, improve or evolve an older design with newer technology and thus make something better than either.
Keep at it - I know I will....if lob a mudpie every now and then, it's thrown underhand!
BTW, did ya like my jibe about you thinking the radiator was just a nifty place to hold fans and mount a temperature sender? I LOVED that one!!!
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
From: Fredericksburg VA
Originally Posted by big_G
EXACTLY!!! soccer794...I was making the point that if the switch was in the radiator, and there were no coolant in the radiator, (maybe a leak) ...the fans would never come on....oops, there goes another head gasket....
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Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
From: Fredericksburg VA
Originally Posted by big_G
No mistake..I know how it all works. I just don't think the switch belongs on the radiator...thats all
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
I mounted my thermocouple (sender) two inches below the top rad inlet. If the coolant dropped below that level you would notice the eng. temp rise and shut it down. Maybe not the best place for it but it works fine. My fans turn on and off when thery are supposed to. If I had another place to put it I probably would have, but where it is does just as good as anywhere else. It is sensing the coolant temp right as it comes from the engine and keeps my engine running cool. You are no more apt to have a problem having it mounted in the rad as anywhere else. If you monitor the fluid levels like you are supposed to, the biggest surprise you are going to have is a rad hose blowing and you know that instantly.
Bernie
Bernie
Racer
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
From: Dallas County Texas
See Norval, it was ME and had nothing to do with
being from the "Great White North"!
i'm so confused
BTW, we'll take some of that "Great White" about now...and a repeat in August - ice, snow...even slush - whatever you have laying around!
Originally Posted by rosslato
i'm so confused
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
From: Chapel Hill NC
The coolant going to the engine is what you care about; so you want to monitor it. That's what will allow the thermostat to control engine temp. The output from the engine will always be at least the thermostat set temperature; winter or summer. The fans will go on a lot more(with the sender in the engine or in the top of the radiator) in the winter, and send much cooler coolant to the engine. Which will affect it's performance some.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,662
Likes: 8
From: Knoxville Tennessee
Thermostat controls the flow of the coolant thru the engine, if you have one. Before electric fans, engine fans ran continously and the thermostat told the system when to flow coolant to keep the engine at a consistant temp. Although electric fans are energized by switches set at certain temps to turn on and off, they could actually run continously and not cause any problems. The thermostat would still maintain the engine temp where it should be. We are drastically overcomplicating this issue.
Bernie
Bernie
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 213
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From: Chapel Hill NC
Except that the thermostatic fan clutch was created for the mechanical fan. It has it's biggest effect in the winter. It not only saves some energy; but keeps the coolant going into the block from being too cold, which is it's primary job.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11,872
Likes: 12
From: Waterloo ontario Canada
Originally Posted by WayneLBurnham
being from the "Great White North"!
BTW, we'll take some of that "Great White" about now...and a repeat in August - ice, snow...even slush - whatever you have laying around!
BTW, we'll take some of that "Great White" about now...and a repeat in August - ice, snow...even slush - whatever you have laying around!
It is alot hotter then most think and winter has little snow.
Pro
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 641
Likes: 3
From: Long Island NY
Someone was right about there not being enough popcorn for this thread. I just rebuilt and swung my original 454 (30 over) roller cam and rockers and lots of head work with 10.25 compression and A/C back into my 1970. I have a 180 thermostat and a Griffin aluminum radiator rated for 600 hp along with the stock clutch fan and shroud. All possible air leaks have been filled around the shroud and radiator. I'll be firing it within a week or so and if anybody is interested I can post back here what temps the car is running. I had asked Griffin specifically about running an electric push fan in front to augment the stock fan and they said absolutely not to and the temps would be fine.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 11,520
Likes: 13
From: CORVETTE 77 385 C.I. TEXAS
Originally Posted by jbs75
SHIELDS ARE UP
Originally Posted by jbs75
Temp sensing, for me, is understood.
If someone is going to run el. fans only, then 2 make sense as there would be some minimal cooling if one failed. The fans should be staged.
If A/C, then one is turned on w/ the A/C (common knowledge, commonly done & as Jim said).
Sometimes it is good to think out of the box.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 11,520
Likes: 13
From: CORVETTE 77 385 C.I. TEXAS
Originally Posted by artvette
... 454 (30 over) roller cam and rockers and lots of head work with 10.25 compression and A/C ... Griffin aluminum radiator rated for 600 hp along with the stock clutch fan and shroud. ... I had asked Griffin specifically about running an electric push fan in front to augment the stock fan and they said absolutely not to and the temps would be fine.
Ford engineer Wayne Lawson "experimentation has shown that an electric fan located inside a shroud behind the radiator that rotates in the opposite direction of the engine-driven fan dramatically improves low-speed cooling. Lawson describes it as creating the equivalent of a near-zero tip clearance for the engine-driven fan. Keep in mind that the electric fan must counter-rotate while pulling air through the radiator. That will require using the correct fan blade to create that situation."
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 213
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From: Chapel Hill NC
They tried some counterrotating props for some experimental aircraft in the 40s' and 50s'. It worked very well; I would be leary of it though, because think of the blades flexing, and having a meeting...so to speak!