Hey Guys,

By now I'm sure many of you don't know me and many others probably don't remember me, it has indeed been a while since I've posted anything. I went through a bit of a Corvette depression stage where I wasn't able to work on things and didn't want to think about it. Now that that is over, I'm back and need some more help

I actually have quite a few questions, but I think I'll stick to one major question per post so as to not clog up a particular post with too many topics that some folks may not care about

I have a Holley 4150 DP bolted to the top of my 383 stroker that I only have about 700 miles on so far, so I'm still a bit into the tuning phase for me as I'm not expert enough to get these things right very quickly. The main problem I'm having is that on hard braking (seems especially while cornering) the engine will die. It seems to be flooding as I can't start it again afterward for some time.

I double checked the primary float level and set it as Lars describes in his instructions: adjust until a small trickle of fuel starts to come out of the sight hole, then back it off just until the trickle goes away. I originally did the same on the secondary side as well, but decided to try lowering it a little bit to see if it would help. It didn't help to lower it a little.

Is this "normal" behavior for this carb? I don't have to brake all that hard to cause a severe stumble. Simply coasting at about 20MPH and braking firmly will do it. Even if this is fairly typical, I would like to hear what solutions may help the problem as it is quite annoying to say the least.

I have also of course setup the power valve, the primary jets, and the idle mixture and speed. I think everthing is in the ball park (not perfect perhaps, but it's all close).

Thanks!
-dath

 

Sounds like fuel spewing out of the bowl vents. If you have room under the air cleaner top you may want to connect the vent tubes with a section of rubber hose. At the very top of the bow in the hose cut a divot to provide venting.

BigBlockk

Later.....

 

Thanks BigBlock, I'll give that a try. Is this a "normal" problem though? I've seen threads about this before, but I don't know how common it is. I'm just wondering why I'm so special to have this trouble It isn't like I have to really tromp the brakes or anything here to cause at least some very noteworthy stumble.

Hopefully I have room, my air cleaner is *TINY* as I have very little clearance to my hood. That's another problem I need to figure out, though I think that's going to involve some custom fabrication to fix. One more reason to get a welder

-dath

 

Lower the fuel level about another 1/4 turn on each end until you get a better air cleaner.

Weren't you the guy that ordered an engine from *censored*, installed it, and then the rods beat up the pan rail when you fired it?

Brett

 

Brett, that was me alright. This is engine #2, there was too much material in the pan when I pulled it. I don't think it was from the clearancing problem either . . . Maybe it was fine, maybe not, I'll never know. Let's just say that this engine has had a few minor issues as well. I'm *NOT* impressed at all and really wish I had just done the whole thing myself (didn't have the money for a high dollar build). Anyhow, you'll probably see another couple of posts about a couple of those problems with some questions . . . Suffice it to say that I would *NEVER* do business with this builder again. He never even gave me my build data and owes me a fuel pump. I gave up after a month of calling about those things and having him say he already sent the paperwork and change the subject about the pump. He did send me a flex plate I never asked for though This whole thing is part of the reason I just got sick of working on the car. This guy has no attention to any detail of any kind. There were problems all the way from the crating (both engines had crating issues of different kinds) to having an improperly adjusted rocker arm. Oh yeah, drivers side head is leaking oil, and I think both sides leaked a little coolant for a while, but that seems to have stopped . . .

Sorry for the rant, I'm just so frustrated with those things, then I saw what happened with Travis's engine while searching the forum a few days ago and it just scares the crap out of me. I plan to put this thing on the track with a 150 shot of N2O. . . I'm afraid.

So getting on with the problem at hand. . . I tried the hose idea and it would be great, but for two problems. Problem number one is that I have about 1/4 inch clearance between the vent and the top of the air cleaner. I'm not sure I can do any better than that either. My hood is very close to this dinky cleaner. . . The second issue is the front vent tube . . . It just barely sticks up and is cut at an angle. How would one get any kind of hose to stay on it? I'd take a picture, but my camera bought it. . .

I think that is the problem though. I put a hose over the back vent tube and tried to wedge it kind of on the front one, cut a big groove in the top center and went and killed the car again (It came loose in front, no surprise there). Fuel definitely ran through the tube though, I could see that it was wet where I cut the hole.

1/4 turn isn't much really is it? Any other possibilities? I just don't see how I will ever be able to use the tube idea without custom fabrication of a non-rubber hose of some kind. . . Also, the hold down for the air cleaner is in the middle between the two vent tubes, the hose would have to route around that too . . . No big deal with rubber . . .

EDIT:
Oh, I could put the hose *INSIDE* of the vent tubes if I got the right size? That would certainly solve the issue of not being able to put it around the front one. . . I think I need to get my Holley tuning/modding book out, been a while since I read it. . .

-dath

 

Anyone else? I think the hose idea has merit, I just don't see how I could make it work with this air cleaner (and really the hood I have and I don't want a giant hood, I like the sleeper look ) and with the front vent tube being cut at an angle and not sticking out more than 1/8th inch at the low point on the angle.

 

Try lowering the float level. I had a stumbling problem under braking and lowering the float level fixed it. You can always raise the level again if ya want to...

Brett

 

I'll try lowering it further and let you know. Thanks!

 

Hey dath, good to see you're back.
It's unfortunate you're still having engine problems even after #2. Yeah, if I had it all to do over again, I definitely would have gone with another builder or another option. More and more I think Olivier (GrandSportC3) is really Mark. Just kidding. He was the final key that helped me to decide. It's really a shame because in the begining Mark was really good to work with. He answered my cazillion emails, was always there to answer my phone calls, and seemed like a real honest guy. I still don't necessarily doubt his honesty but his communication skills and attention to business basics is horrible.

Mine is just finally back on the road after almost a year. I didn't pull the heads off before dropping it in, seriously considered it though, but checked everything else. This one appears to be better than my first. No smoking at startup, great oil pressure (I never had good oil pressure w/#1), and seems to run a little smoother. I also have an extra balancer and flexplate I'll probably sell on eBay. He "claims" his guys accidentally grabbed them from the wrong box when crating it and sending it off.
He also told me he'd send the cam card with the engine but still haven't received it. I'll just keep pestering him until he does because that's info I really need to know.

 

Thanks, it's good to be back.

I am hoping that all of the problems I'm having are minor. It really stinks to have any issues at all, but from my experience there is no attention to detail at all from this guy. Lots of stupid little things. Not having the build data is a real pain. I just called a few minutes ago to see if I can get them to send it out, but Mark wasn't in, so I left a message. . .

Glad to hear you have yours back on the road again. Did you end up replacing all of the pistons, or just the bad one? How much machine work did the heads need?

Oh yeah, for everyone else, I didn't get to tuning the car this weekend, sorry, I will keep you posted with what works though!

 

The only piece from my original motor is the balancer and valve covers. He offered to just replace all pistons for free but after seeing that they were the cheap "claimer" pistons I decided to go forged. Went to forged 6" rods and forged flat top pistons. Still cast crank but a new block. He said he wanted an earlier block, something about higher iron content for strength, the heads were warranteed because the valve guides were worn way too much (which is most likely the source of my oil consumption), also put in a healthier solid cam (close to .6" total lift), and gapless rings. I also put a Vic Jr intake on it this time. He still only charged what he quoted originally which was just for new pistons, rods, cam, and rings. Labor was free but I paid for it in time. That's really one of my biggest gripes. It was supposed to only take 1.5 months but ended up being around 8 months.

 

Glad to hear he at least made good on what clearly looked to be a build induced failure or rather set of failures. Do you know what brand pistons he used? My original build was Probe, I don't know about this one as I have no build sheet (never had one for the original either) and haven't pulled the pan to look. I'm a little uncertain about the Probe pistons, I've read that they aren't the greatest, but I haven't ever read of anyone having problems with them either, so . . .

I think I'll build the next one myself. I don't have any experience in doing so, but I think with enough patience and buying the right parts it'll easily be better than what I have now. Of course I don't plan on doing that for many years to come as there is no way I have the money to do another build up, especially since my wife is back to school to finish up her BS and then on to get her masters.

 

My original pistons were cast pistons. They were claimers which are cheap pistons and he claimed would hold up to the power levels he quoted but not anymore....ie, not to run nitrous, blower, etc.
The new ones are Probe and are the no-name copies of Ross forged pistons. Supposed to be the same but cheaper because of lack of name brand, advertising, packaging, etc.

 

Yeah, I figured he'd use Probe for most of these builds since they are less expensive. The complaints I saw about them on some other forum were fairly minor kinds of things. Basically that they had poor tolerences between the pistons in a set, but that only really matters in that more or less weight adding/subtracting may need to be done and that the cylinders will need to be bored to slightly different sizes. I couldn't find any complaints that their quality was poor or of any failures. . . I'm sure my current engine has Probe pistons as well; I'd know for sure if Mark would ever return a phone call and send my build data out. I'm starting to think he doesn't actually keep track of anything when he builds an engine

-dath

 

I also asked for a spec sheet with all the parts used for my engine..and never received it.
I know what most of the parts are, but I'm sill missing the specs on other parts used... Well, as long as the engine keeps running as good as it has been running for the last months, that fact won't cost me sleepless nights... 38 passes so far on my new AR engine without any issues with the engine... The rings are sealing perfect. Checked all plugs and no oil etc. on any of them. Checked all the videos of my car going down the track.. and no type of smoke.. I used to have a little smoke with my old 383, but the 406 so far has been without any smoke etc... Well, the 406 also cost me about twice what I paid for the 383... so it should better be good

 

Dath -
Before installing the vent tube hose or dropping float level, install the vent "whistles" in the metering block vent holes inside the float bowls (if the carb does not already have them). A "whistle" is a white plastic rectangular tube that extends the vent location to the opposite side of the float bowl - it clips into the metering block vent hole inside the float bowl and prevents fuel from sloshing into the vent during hard braking and acceleraton. Barry Grant carbs come from the factory with the whistles, but many Holley carbs are not equipped with them. This solved my similar problem on one of my road race cars a few years ago.

Lars

 

lars - I know the primary side had one and I'm pretty sure the secondary side did as well. I guess I'll get some new gaskets and pull the secondary metering block just to make sure there is one in there. It does seem strange to me that I would have the problem with one of these installed. I wonder, do you think I could see it through the sight hole? I'll see if I can take a peek tonight, it just doesn't seem right to keep lowering the float level, then I'm worried I'll get into the opposite condition.

I did manage to find a vacuum leak when I retightened my intake manifold bolts. I had spilled enough fuel all over the vacuum hose I had connected to the manifold for my brake booster. . . It expanded and wasn't making a good seal at all. That seems to have helped this problem a little (not sure why, but it did seem to help a bit). It is definitely still an issue though.

GS - Yeah, it is just not acceptible in my opinion not to supply the promised "blueprints" with an engine. I don't even know what cam was used in mine as he swapped it at the last minute because he couldn't get the performance he wanted (he supposedly dynoed my engine). Since he put my engine on a dyno, why not send a printout from that along as well? I'm starting to think he doesn't keep track of what he does during any given engine build. A person shouldn't need to rip their engine apart to figure out what is what. I at a minimum really would like ot know the cam grind that was used and how everything was indexed. Maybe he did something funky that is causing my knocking with less than 36* (I do need to doublecheck that I'm not getting more than 36*, so I can't say that is a definite problem to be fair). . .

-dath

 

I believe that AR doesn't have enough staff to keep up with the orders..which causes issues like that...

However, I have dealt with other builders before.. and AR is a lot better than the businesses that I dealt with before... One engine that I bought from another builder used up 1 quart of oil every 100 miles (even after break-in).. After 600 miles, one of my rocker arms and pushrods broke and it turned out that they were using used pushrods and rocker arms and then nobody returned my calls etc...

AR might not be perfect, but so far I've been very satisfied with the quality and performance of the 2 engines that I bought from them. However, they still should provide specs on the engines that they sell..
Another thing is that AR, even though that they offer no warranty, have often stood up for their work if there were issues.. Other builders won't do that... The other builder that sold me the junk 383 never returned my calls when I had an issue . I could've sued them but that would've cost me more money I would have had to sue them in their state etc... which would've been even more expensive for me.

 

GS, I agree with you on some levels. Myself, I would *NEVER* even consider doing business with AR again. I had so many little issues with what they shipped me that I just wonder what other miniscule little details may have been missed on the internals that I won't find out until something goes boom. I paid for a fuel pump that I never received and Mark liked to change the subject when I would ask about it. I finally gave up and bought one and still haven't gotten to installing it yet anyhow . . .

One of my worries is that he really isn't bothering to "blueprint" the engines at all. What other excuse would they have for not simply throwing the blueprints in when they ship the engine out? Why did he lied to me and say he sent them already when I talked to him many months ago?

When everything is going smoothly Mark is very easy to deal with. He also has stood behind his products, I will agree on that. However, my second engine build had several issues, including breaking a bolt during shipping on the crate. Grade 8 anyone? The bolts looked like some old fence bolts or something and the engine was kinda hanging sideways a little due to the broken bolt How about having a rocker arm that was loose from day one? No wonder he said he couldn't get the numbers on the dyno (if he really did dyno it, I never saw any paperwork on that either). The first engine had a cheesy piece of plywood on top of the crate that got punched down over the vent tubes on the carb. Wonderful, I had to pull the carb apart and clean all of the wood chips out. Then there was of course the clearancing issue and the material in the pan on the first build. No bolt holes were chased on either engine. How hard would it be? At least I realized it on the second one and chased them all before dropping it in and then having to fight with the bellhousing bolts for hours like I did on the first . . . I've said it before and I will say it again now, these issues are *NOT* issues I would expect from a professional engine builder. I know mistakes happen and I would be fine with that, but this many mistakes only means one thing to me. Poor quality and worksmanship.

If this thing blows up I don't know if I'll be able to replace it. Even $5K is a lot of money for me.

I know you have had good luck and I don't blame you at all for telling everyone so. I'm very happy for you and think that your car is awesome (really I do!). I just didn't share your luck. Maybe Mark likes you and is more careful with the work he does for you, I don't know, but I was *VERY* polite and kind about the whole thing and told him to take his time and do it right. I tried not to call very often until he was several months later than he had predicted. I gave him every chance I could to do a good job, but yet there was the same lack of attention to detail on both builds.

I just hope that I don't have any major issues with my engine and really wish I had the paperwork as I don't know much more about this engine than the Mr. Potato Head engine that was originally in my car before I decided to swap it out. I'm wondering if the cam is even a good match for my torque converter. Wish I knew because I'd love to get different rear gears, but don't know which ones would match up the best.

Sorry for the long rant here, but a lot of this is why I left the forum for so long and quit working on my car. I just got tired of it. It felt like the same experience I had with buying crappy rebuilt brake parts from Napa that I had to replace with less expensive parts of higher quality within six months of installing. Pitted cylinders on rebuilt calipers??? I like to do something *ONCE* and have it work correctly. Then I can think about upgrades in the future Now that this thing isn't my daily driver I can get away with letting it sit while I save money to do things right. That's an important lesson to learn.


-dath

 

How much Fuel pressure do you have and what type of fuel pump are you running?