me too. sitting this one out.

 

The Richmond 5 spd bolts in also without having to remove the engine.
All though the transmission mount (the one that bolts to the x-member) does have to be modified. Richmond supplies the instructions in their manual - takes about a day to due if you have a welder. The stock clutch mechanism, bell housing, and shift plate & boot works with it also so no modifications are necessary to the interior or firewall.

Not that your kit isn't excellent looking, I'm just throwing out another option for the guys. Shoot I'd probably would have gone with the TKO myself if I had known about your conversion 5 years ago when I converted my 76 from an automatic to a manual. It would have been a lot simplier than having to figure out all the factory parts to make the Richmond work and look like a factory setup. We need all the support we can get from venders like you ... keep up the good work.

 

I'll way in, in a minute you boys sit back since I just got in and need to eat some dinner.. Dave

 

...but the Richmond does not have an overdrive, so why bother ?

 

Hi Robert, I was refering to the Viper T56 you use to offer rated at 650ft/lbs, and I have already been to that party.

 

1) Well, it was over $1000 less expensive than your kit, including all the supporting hardware (clutch, bell housing, driveshaft, etc.)

2) I can run 3.08 rear end gears for the street which enables me to achieve 20 mpg using a carburetor, while allowing me to run 12.8's @ 108 mph in the 1/4 mile on my normal street tires. Just pull it on the strip and go . My engine combination actually likes the closer gear ratio changes in the Richmond.

It may not be quite as good as an overdrive, but its a LOT better than a stock 4 speed using low rear end gears to get into the 12's.

 

Expecting delivery of my Keisler TKO-500 around March 17th. Checked out their display at Carlisle last year, several times. Talked on the phone recently with Gene for quite a while, asking lots of questions. Everyone I have dealt with at Keisler so far has been very helpful and professional. I expect the product will be the same.

 

That's what I did. I had a spare 3.08 rear collecting dust, so I yanked the 4.11 pumpkin out and popped in the 3:08. Then slid that bad boy in there. I cut the cross-member anyways just to make things easier down the road.

 

Funny how you say that you re-manufacture the tail housing to make the overall length shorter correct? Okay I think you might want to go talk to your tech department.

Here are the dimensions listed for the TKO500



Here is a pic of the tranny that I so happen to have sitting on my work bench with my lovely assistant holding the tape measure.



By the way if you can't seem to see the actual length here is a close up of the overall length



With the yoke that is now supplied and one that I had until this past fall is extremely long. Now you ask what this has to do with anything. With the driveshaft length provided by KE this makes the yoke press tightly against the tranny seal. This causes extended wear and actually tore mine after a short time of use. I determined that I'd rather deal with pressing the caps in and out than having a tranny leak. Speaking of that here is a side by side comparison of the lengths of the two yokes


I'll agree with you that it's not the easiest job either way. You say you have one installed in your car. Did you do any of the work?

You answered your own question in a later post


For some reason I've gone to lengths not to post my full name on any forum so thanks for posting that information. Something about invasion of privacy. Also if you are going to use my screen name please address me correctly it's "youwish2bme". I think the bigger issue is you have just posted my full name and location. Please make sure to refrain from posting that information on the internet.

Seems that KE still can't get out of their own way in that anytime a person calls or emails that it takes DAYS if ever for someone to get back to them. Only after threatening LEGAL action could I get a response recently. This is not new information it has been posted many times before AND not by me.


I'm angry because you only are a marketing person and really don't understand the people, cars or your own product. Also after numerous emails to you after receiving the TO and Pilot bearing you ignored my requests.

I'm still waiting for the response from your "Parts Manager" He stated that KE only uses the highest quality parts. Funny BCA stands for Bearing Company of America. The TO (throw out) bearing that I received was just a standard BCA that I could pick up locally. As for the Roller Pilot was just a Moroso. The complete story was that KE charged me 100.00 for 40.00 dollars worth of parts. The 40 dollars was what I had to pay locally not Jobber. KE receives these parts at Jobber which is 50% over dealer so what that means is KE is making over 300% on the parts. It is standard practice to make money when you have to resell parts I understand that. However gouging customers is REDICULIOUS. Once again tell me I'm wrong.....

I know that was a stretch that was not what made me mad. I waited a LONG time to get my kit and the only way KE could complete the kit was to put the UPGRADED clutch out the door. The reason I don't think it's safe is proof in the pictures. Look how close the clutch disc is to the pressure plate bolts. Tell me that isn't to close when the clutch is by MY feet.






It was that after I asked numerous times for a MRA to only return the TO and Pilot bearing that I could never get a response from you or the "Parts Manager" about the the TO and Pilot bearing. Also about trying to be SNOWED that KE somehow got SPECIAL TO's and Pilot bearings. You need to learn that BS goes only so far and the facts will shine thru.. Once again tell me I'm lying


I take personal offense to this as I have never Blackmailed you. You have brought up all of this on an internet forum. I'm sure I'll receive another call from Gray. Which by the way Gray I always enjoy talking to you however you need to get the Marketing arm of KE into check. Shafi if you are reading this you and I have also spoke in the past. Robert is bad for YOUR business. I have never made an unreasonable request. As for Robert's explanation of my request for a pressure plate is not unreasonable. I originally ordered a 10.5" CLUTCH AND PRESSURE plate. I received a 10.9" setup but considering KE already had my money for 4 months I don't know how much more I could do so I installed it. After seeing the actual wear marks I thought it was the right thing to do for KE to provide me with the setup I originally ordered after patiently waiting and still not receiving what I ordered.

I also find it interesting that Classic Chevy 5-Speed is no longer on this forum. One phone call cleared that up though. Something about the Corvette Forum and the Mods. I guess KE can pay more to the site and have the bigger Marketing voice. I didn't think the CF would play favorites but hey I guess I don't see as much as I think I do. I have to say Scott and Jeff at CC5 seem to have their act together. Even though I bought my 5 speed for KE they spent time to talk to me about all that is going on. Needless to say my dad has a 66 too that he bought in 72 he's the second owner. After driving mine with the 5 speed Tremec he has almost decided for me to do the swap from his 4 spd to a 5 spd. With that being said as of now just from the CRAP I've taken on the forum from Robert at KE and the warm discussion I had with the guys at CC5 (Classic Chevy 5-Speed) I'm more than inclined to let my father spend his hard earned money with CC5.

BTW think I'm SNOWING you on the other vette take a look, also it's not like I have a rep on the forums for misrepresenting the TRUTH. I have spent quite a bit of time rebuilding my corvette and working on other's vettes so I think that qualifies me to know what I'm talking about. Respectfully Dave..

 

As for the Richmond 6 speed it's just a different setup. The 6 speed works better for those that have a higher rear gear ie a 3:08 gear. The 6 speed has a different spread vs the TK0 500 that has an actual overdrive so that you can use a lower gear such as a 3:70. Now it's all a wash except for the marketing hype...

 

Nope - I never said anything about length. It's the height of the tailhousing that makes the difference. Our shifter tower is removable, so the tailhousing fits over the crossmember and the shifter tower installs from inside the car after the tranny is in.

I was out of town when they installed my tranny, but I have been up to my elbows in installs on other cars. I also rebuilt the engine and brakes myself and stripped the body down to fiberglass for the repaint.


I should not have posted your last name. My apologies.


That is simply not true. I went back and re-read our correspondence from that time period. There were e-mails on a near daily basis and sometimes more than one per day. Once it got the point where you were asking for a free clutch, it was out of my hands. I can offer no reason for why it took so long to resolve things after that.

Dave - that is an unfounded remark.
1)You are the only customer in 3 years to complain about me. You were fine with me until you did not get a free clutch.

2) I'm not only a "marketing person". I'm a dyed in the wool car enthusiast, and I have the scarred hands and greasy fingernails to prove it. I started rebuilding cars in my dad's barn when I was a teenager and am currently wrapping up the resto on my '66 Vette and starting on my '66 Mustang Fastback.

3) Of course I understand our product I assume you're speaking of your dissertation on the length of a TKO tailhousing. Please note I never said we had a shorter tailhousing. I said our tailhousing fit over the crossmember with the engine in the car, and it does.

Dave - We do use top quality parts, but I would agree that if you had a bearing from the same mfg with the same part number as what we sold you, then it is most likely the same bearing.


Sir - please - once again I'm sorry you don't like its appearance, but it is a perfectly safe arrangement.. I repeat myself - there are THOUSANDS of these clutches out and they work just fine.


I re-read your e-mails and the one sent to you from our parts manager. He NEVER said we had "special" bearings. He just said we use top quality parts - which we do. It was after he told you that when you specifically mentioned to him via e-mail that you had parts from the same mfg we use. Like I said earlier, we make no pretense to compete with your local parts store. We are foremost an engineering and production company, but we do offer supporting products as a convenience to our customers.

My apologies again. That was a poor choice of words, but you did tell me that since we were not going to give you a free clutch and price match with your local parts store that you were going to stop telling people you enjoy your Keisler 5 speed and that you would start posting your negative experiences instead.

In closing Dave, I hate it when things become adversarial in nature. That is the opposite of what we all want. You had posted erroneous or outdated information that reflected negatively on our company, so I had to respond in a line item fashion. I had no desire to aggravate you further.

Well I have given myself a migraine and am loosing good chunk of my vision, so I guess it's time to sign off.

 

"Crap is King" at Keisler

 

So you are saying that the emails that I continued to send requesting a MRA to return the parts were answered in a timely manner? The pray tell me why it took multiple emails to you and copying the Parts Manager with no response over two weeks. Then when I let you know that if I do not get a response I will just dispute the charges? I still never got a response from you, the person I had been emailing about all of this. Gray called because I've talked to him numerous times and he's always been helpful.. Only then did I get the MRA that I needed.

The issue about the TO and Pilot bearing are not just about KE providing a product that will last it's about price GOUGING. I bought those because I had blind faith about KE in that a product would be provided at a fair price. It seems I was wrong and all I wanted was to return the parts. However I was IGNORED.

As for the Clutch it was never about the clutch it was about the Pressure plate. And YOU keep making this about the clutch trust me I have more than enough money it wasn't and isn't about that. It is/was about KE providing me with I originally ordered. It has been out of site out of mind until I pulled the unit out this past fall.

The issue with me wanting to no longer support or continue spreading the propaganda is only the straw that broke the camel's back. I have for years over looked the issues at hand but the way I've been treated in the last six months is rediculous. I've told hundreds of people how happy I've been with the tranny however I usually have glossed over the problems. Now I just provide both sides of the coin. If I provide all the facts it is going to itself lend itself to showing KE in a negative light. There is no way to change the facts.

I'm done. I think more than enough people can see what I'm talking about and unless you do to me as KE did to Classic Chevy 5 the information and me will be available to the hobby in the archieves for years to come. Like I said before I find it odd that they can no longer post on this forum.

 

You're a supporting vendor, and I can respect that. So, I will restrain my remarks, even though your comments are... SMUG, to say the least...

Did it fit without cutting my car? Nope. I made the center portion of the crossmember removable, both to install (and if needed later)or remove trans easily. To a guy who has a NCRS show-queen, that guy will never put such an "INCORRECT" piece into such a trophy, anyway. I.e., to the truly concerned "restorer", the TKO/T-56 will never be acceptable. Correct Driving angle? Yes, of course. Correct shifter position in an unmodified console? Look at my car... Do you really think that's a selling-point for me???


Extended warranty, lifetime tech support...? You're JOKING, right???

Your warranty states, "This warranty is void if the product is or was improperly installed, abused in any manner, or used for racing or experimental purposes. Road or accident damage is not covered."

So, the warranty is essentially worthless, to anybody with a high-performance engine... Because if the engine actually generates enough HP to break the trans, then clearly, the trans was already being "abused." Of course, if the car didn't generate North of 600 HP already, I wouldn't NEED to get the TKO-600... NICE.

You can afford to double the length of the warranty (for FREE! ) because you'll rarely have a claim that can't easily be denied... IF there's a defect in the trans, it'll show up fairly quickly- within the first year, certainly. And THEN it's simply sent back to Tremec, under the original warranty. So doubling it sounds good, but offers only emotional support.... nothing REAL.

I'm sufficiently experienced with cars, that I don't NEED your warranty, your "tech" advice or anything else... ONLY the trans.

Your competition sells the SAME product as you (less all the profit-generating frippery that I have no use for) for about 1/2 the price...

I've NO doubt that your company has been growing so fast... And congratulations to you, for that. The high-priced frills have clearly been VERY profitable for you.

But I decided that I'd prefer to keep my money in MY pockets, and not yours...

For those without the knowledge, the experience and/or the means to do this conversion on their own, you offer a nice service. And when THAT situation exists, where it must be farmed-out...? THEN you get what you pay for...

If any of my car budds preferred to just send out his car, and "git 'er DONE," I would recommend your company. If a man has more money then time and/or smarts, then fine. I'll recommend Keisler.

But I won't use your kit. Why would I NEED to?

Spoken like a true salesman. I should know- I WAS one, for a long time... Working in the industrial robotics industry.

However, also being a trained economist from UC Davis, this statement can be argued BOTH ways.... and the most correct example of this statement, is the "indifference curve," a direct extrapolation of supply/demand curves. When the price is higher than the value (real or perceived), sales fall, until the price comes down... the significance of supply/demand curves tend to be minimized with respect to market significance, however, when the market is monopolized. Or an oligopoly exists. The monopolistic/oligopolistic supplier(s) produce as MUCH as they can, and sell every unit available, because they CAN. When the TKO first appeared on the market, you had the jump on everyone else... Congrats, in being the first-mover in the market. Also congrats, for packaging such a sweet-selling package, with LOTS of frills and emotionally comforting bells and whistles.

And this first-mover status has paid off handsomely. But there are LOTS of players in the market now trying to take a bite of YOUR pie... In other words, your market-power has diminished substantially, as the competition has grown. Of course- it's ECONOMICS, at it's most basic.

From an economic standpoint, you offer ONE thing... a tail housing... Is it REALLY worth $1000? No, of COURSE not...

Do most of us CARE about the special tail-housing??? NO.

Given these conditions, your statement about "Price and value are different things" is BALONEY. The better the price (for the the only thing I wanted- the TRANS), the BETTER the value.

Care to discuss economics further...? I LOVE a good debate...

 

No Dave. They were not answered in a timely manner. I was saying that I tried to your e-mails in a timely manner when you were asking questions and ordering parts, but I have no control over returns or refunds. All I could do was check with the parts manager for you, and I did that several times. We did not handle that properly.

 

I guess I'm going to jump in this discussion and offer my six pence...

Way back when knights were bold and no one heard of TKO's, other than Ford, I traded labor for a brand new Doug Nash 5 gear and Hurst shifter..yup Doug Nash, the original tranny.

As mentioned above, I fabricated the rear tranny bracket, went to NAPA and purchased a combo U joint, purchased a used TH400 yoke, and for appearance sake, purchased a Vette shifter handle. Total cash outlay was around $100.00 for the small parts, and 1500.00 traded in labor.

As far as installation, I removed the tailshaft housing, dropped the tranny in place, replaced the tailshaft housing. I did not cut the crossmember, the shifter is in the stock location. After installation, I had to shorten the shifter rods as they were hitting the crossmember.

All in all this installation was the nearest thing to being a drop in, and the fabrication of the rear tranny bracket, not a whole lot of time or effort involved.

As far as NCRS, the wheels, the 533 incher and the tranny make it not correctly restored, B U T , during the restoraton process, I saved and reused every bolt, and should I desire to turn my 68 into a correctly restored trailer queen, I can just by replacing the parts. That's why I chose not to modify the crossmember. Again, by removing the tailshaft housing, R & R of the 5 speed is not a bid deal.

 

I have a doug nash 5 speed I bought back in 1982,it has been put in 3 of my cars without pulling the engine.

 

Breathial,

Whoa there fella,

I was not trying to be "smug" or offend you in any way. I was just pointing out the difference between buying a bare tranny and adapting the car to fit the tranny vs buying a "kit" where the tranny has been adapted to fit the car

As for warranty - WE HAVE NEVER TURNED DOWN A LEGITIMATE WARRANTY CLAIM. We know our customers are going to have fun with these kits. That's what they are made for. We do have "cover our butts" language in the warranty because it is much easier to tell a customer we will honor a warranty beyond the written terms, than it is to try to write a warranty that defines every possible scenario. Do you know of any companies that offer open ended warranties on performance parts?

You're are way off base there buddy. You're saying that other companies offer a complete bolt in , no mods 5 speed conversion kit for $1,500 ??????? That just ain't so. The only kits that come anywhere close to what we offer cost $200 - $300 MORE, and you have to pull your engine to install that kit.

If you are talking about buying an unmodified tranny with the various brackets, mounts, driveshaft etc... we offer those at a much lower price than our PerfectFit series of kits. We call that the "Builders Series". We will also match any other Tremec distributor's price on an unmodified transmission.

You gotta let me tease you just a little here ... please ... after all you said I was being smug for just pointing out the differences between buying a kit and buying an unmodified tranny.

... Just to say that the extra grand spent to buy a PerfectFit kit vs a bare tranny and misc parts, really makes economic sense. Most of the these Vettes will lose more then $1,000 in value if you start cutting things up and modifying or deleting the console. That is just the way it is. You also have the time value of money. Many guys like to install the tranny themselves, but they want everything to come to their door so they can do the job in one day and not have to spend their time fabricating and chasing parts.

For other guys, like yourself, who like to do things their own way we offer the unmodified trannies or the Builders Series. It's the up to the customer's discretion as to which makes the best economic sense to them.

 

I hope this pissing match ends soon, you guys have terrible aim....