Jay, where'd you pick up those pedals? how much $? direct bolt on?
I like em. They fit on stock gas, clutch and brake assembly?

 

I got them from local speed shop, but you can get them straight from sparcousa.com They were very easy to install. Since they are slightly narrower than the stock pedals, you'll need to trim the stock pedals so they are flush with the Sparco pedals. Then drill holes. The gas pedals needed bit more attention. I didn't use the stock plastic pedal, but made a new one out of sheet aluminum, very easy thing to do...

 

I honestly think you will make it under 3000lbs. I have only done the simple weight remove mods like spare tire removed, fixed headlights and other random things and it removed 300lbs. I weighed my car last week and I was pleasantly surprised as it wasn't as heavy as I thought it would be.

 

Isn't this what I was talking about earlier in the post?? Your friend is laying up Carbon Fiber parts??? That isn't really possible is it??? To do a true carbon fiber part is very very expensive. Your friend is just laying Carbon Fiber cloth up like normal fiberglas so you loose the benefit of rigidity and light wieght.
Might as well stick to normal fiberglass parts.

 

I can't let you get away with that. Give us the numbers and please subtract your weight.


Norval,

Can you tell us more detail about the making of true carbon fiber parts?

 

I had two people in the car and we both weigh around 155 and a 3/4 tank of gas. Gas weighs roughly 6 pounds. When it was weighed it was 3640, subtract 310 and about 55 pounds for gas and you get 3275lbs.

 

Was that before lunch or after a 2 big burgers and fries, sunoco or texaco gas?

 

I don't really know but I do know that alot of people just use Carbon fiber cloth in place of fiberglass cloth and get the carbon fiber look without any of the benefits of carbon fiber. The benefits are extremely strong, rigid and light weight. All these caracteristics are gone if you use it only as a fiberglassing cloth.

We had a guest and I went to his van with him. In it he had a true carbon fiber mustang hood. It was so light, so rigid and beautiful but he claimed it was just to expensive to mass produce. If it was simple fiberglass it is easy.
Maybe Marck could tell use more.
The guys here sometime lay up the carbon fiber like normal fiberglass and vacuum bag it to draw out some of the resin but that is only part of the Carbon fiber process. Their results are carbon fiber look alikes but it is still ordinary fiberglass.

 

Most carbon fiber parts are made just like fiberglass, you use carbon fiber cloth instead of fiberglass and epoxy instead of polesters (which contains styrene, a virtual ingredient to break the fiberglass cross links)

You can build the parts from pre impregnated sheets where the sheets are layed like bandages and then the complete part is put in an autoclave(pressure oven) to cure. Parts can also be vac bagged to extract excess resins.

Carbon composite parts (like a monocoque) are made from sheets and from carbon composites, usually an aluminium honeycomb core with carbon sheets on both sides. The honeycomb gives "height" to the structure for stiffness and the strength comes from the carbon fiber.

Some parts are made by complex weaving procedures where the carbon is woven from strands and the epoxy is added at the same time, this is usually done to fabricate tubes or cones.

If you use carbon instead of fiberglass you not only get the looks but also the strength of the carbon gibers, I also think the carbon fiber matte (given the same thickness) is lighter, fiberglass isn't light at all, in fact a steel body panel is usually lighter.


A hood like you mention is expensive because you have to use large sheets to get that un-interrupted weave, otherwise you see patches (and making it from 1 large sheet also means you don't have to layer it up to overlap the seams -> lighter). As a result much is thrown away, also a aprt like that is mold (hand) laminated usually, then vac bagged and then cured in an autoclave. Add to that the fact that it has to be absolutely watertight and needs stainless threaded inserts and supports...that makes it expensive. Yes, carbon promotes corrosion in a big way (check out the galvanic table)

The only fake carbon fiber I know of is the ricer fol that they stick over stuff (and more recently the foils that are put on my submersing the part in a bath, the foil "swims" near the top and when the part is pulled out it perfectly wraps the part in the foil...pretty nice technique)

What the guys in your building are doing is actually making carbon fiber pieces but by one of the easiest, cheapest and fastest methods of doing it. Vac bagging really improves the part by removing the excess resin"and the autoclave compresses the laminate giving it more strength and eliminating air pockets (sort of like rolling w/ a roller but the results are infinitely better)

Fiberglass is only true fiberglass if it's done w/ glass fibers and polester resins 9containing styrene).

 

Marck your pedals look really racy-as your stuff allways does

Do you have any "local" source for those cool 12pt bolts and nuts? I have got mine from arp but would prefer something inside eu.

 

I only have 12 pnt bolts, no nuts...they are all NAS (aircraft) hardware. I used to get them from the airbase here, those bolts have an expiration date on them en when expired they can no longer use them.

 

I thougt so .. not a easy solution here

 

Twin Turbo posted some good information.

I have worked with carbon fiber and other composite materials in depth for years. From freestanding wet layups to autoclave cured prepregs and filament windings. I have the capability to produce parts a free standing cure, vacuum assisted resin infusion, or hand wet lay vacuum bag. If something really needs a resin system that requires curing in an autoclave, I can source autoclave time too.

That being said, there is nothing "fake" about carbon fiber backed by glass. It is real carbon fiber, it's just not ideal. Parts made this way are cheap to produce and fill a large demand.

I want to correct a few points in this thread. Carbon fiber does not require the use of epoxy resin. I only use epoxy resin, but it is perfectly compatible with polyester or vinylester resins. Accordingly, Epoxy systems can be used with MOST glass fibers. Some CSMs use a styrene monomer binder that doesn't dissolve in epoxy.

The term "carbon composite" doesn't refer to the use of core material such as foam, balsa, or honeycomb. "Composite" refers to the material that results from the combination of a ceramic (carbon, glass, kevlar, spectra), and a polymer (resin). The only place you'll see a non-composite use of carbon on a race car is in carbon-carbon brakes and clutches.

You shouldn't discount discount non-autoclaved, vacuum bagged parts. It is possible to create a part that is just as light as one from an autoclave using modern vacuum bagging techniques. Some resin systems need the elevated temperatures and pressures the autoclave provides. Not many nonstructural parts are autoclaved, I wouldn't use an RTC system for a formula car tub, but for body panels, there is no need to have triple the expense, when that last 5% of strength isn't needed.

Also, not all prepreg materials require an autoclave. Nearly every vendor has several RTC (room temp. cure) prepreg systems.

If anyone has any more composite questions, feel free to PM me.

 

thanks for the info and for clearing things up

 

So when are we going to see "carbon fiber" body panels available for us?

 

It's something that could be done, but I'm not sure that there's a market for them. Mold development is where the major expense is. I'd estimate that making a mold of a fender would be about 30-40 hours, not to mention that it would be impossible to mount them to the bonding strips without covering that pretty twill that so many people care so much about. I'd LOVE to do a full body, but that's easily half a year of development work, and that takes a long time to pay off with sales.


I have a 72 convertible that I'm going to be doing over next winter, so I have been thinking about some C3 products. Maybe a console, dash pad, or shifter surround. Door panels would be cool too. I'd like to do a hood. But on this era vette, you're always going to have to do bodywork to a hood and that will hide the surface finish.I make some midyear and C5/C6 parts, but I haven't mentioned anything on the forum because I'm not a supporting vendor and didn't want to upset anyone. I'll have to look into becoming a vendor.

 

More high-tech applications of carbon fibre. I wonder if they were vacuum bagged, autoclaved, or simply laid up like fibreglass

Scroll to the bottom...
http://www.londoncyclesport.com/weakat/posh.html#

 

That's funny. I've made one of those as a goof. We didn't bother making a mold or anything. We just did an overlay over one we picked up from Home Depot. Light Weight isn't needed, or possibly even desirable in this application.

I bet I could get one under 300g if I tried though. some 1/2" Nomex honeycomb, some 3k twill......