I'm riding the fence on using solid rollers in the 4.600 x 3.75, 499 cube big block I'm looking to put in my '81. It won't be strip raced and won't see slicks, but I'm still gonna beef up the rearend as best I can with solid U-joints, straps and spherical rod ended strut rods. Since this 3.75" stroke engine will want to wind and the internals should be able to take it (Lunati Pro Mod crank and Manley Pro Series rods with JE pistons), I think it would be a waste to go anything other than solid roller and if I go that way, it'll be with Isky Red Zones. I'm going to use Comp's Pro Magnum rockers so I can fit 'em under short valve covers and I have a small diameter booster and vacuum cannister to help with brakes and other vacuum run accessories. This will be a weekend "viper hunter", cruiser and will go on the occasional 300 - 500 mile trip. How much of a pain in the butt is lash checking/adjustment, space under the 'vette hood being limited as it is? Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

 

I set mine in the spring and don't touch them again until fall when I back them off for the winter. We have a suprising amount of room under the hood. Header installation are really easy. Until I got my new riase exhuast port heads plug changing was also very easy.
As for the vacuum booster hydroboost is a far better alternative and gives alot more clearance.
You really have no choice here. For a high winder you need big springs and a hydraulic cam is just not up to the task.
Again my solids are set once a year. With the plugs out and a timing card it is easy to set the valves

 

I'm putting a 468 with a solid roller cam in my '69 right now. Because of the tall valve covers required by the stud girdles, it appears that it's going to be difficult removing the right side because of the wiper door actuator.

 

Bash, why are you gonna run a stud girdle? Sunset Racecraft is a few miles from me and they strongly discourage it. They've been building solid rollers for street engines for years with .680 - .700 lift with no girdles and no related problems. They've done back-to-back dyno tests with no difference in hp or torque to 7500 rpm's. They sure make valve adjusting a pain in the butt, that's for sure.

 

I thought a stud girdle stabalized the valve train. With high spring pressures and high lift I thought the stud would flex.
I too run a stud girdle.

 

Because my engine builder, who is also my brother told me I needed it. I believe the cam has around .720 lift. I have to believe him, he's been building race motors for 25 years. and he built me this motor for his cost, so he's not making any money by selling me parts I don't need.

 

Good enough - that's some pretty good lift. My guys recommend the Jesels and T&D since they tend to stay adjusted better plus you don't have to work around the girdle. By all means, listen to the engine builder you trust. The shop I use tends to think outside the box and doesn't follow the "that's the way we've always done it" philosophy and they have a great track record with engine durability and power.
Norval, they do tend to stabilize the valvetrain a bit but with the good ARP studs, flex is minimal. I'll see if I can get my hands on the dyno comparisons, cam specs, etc. and post 'em here.
Thanks again for your help, guys.

 

I would run away from anybody so stupid that they don't even understand the concept of stud girdles.

Their only correct statement might be no power change. It's true that small bending of the rocker stud might not show power changes in mild street cams and spring pressures

Answer this question: What happens to a piece of metal - Like a simple coat hanger. When you start the bend it back and forth?

Now if you answered that correctly. What happens to your ARP 7/16th roller rocker arm head stud when it's bending .030 inches at 1/2 of 7500 rpm or 3750 times per minute. It's called metal fatigue.

I saw a set of BBC aluminum heads that some shop like the one above might have built. About 1/2 of the rocker studs had been ripped out of the heads. When i saw it at the race shop they were welding all the threaded holes up and they were going to redrill and tap every one of them.

As to your question of adjustment cycle. Good locking rocker nuts and "Stud Girdles" make it so the nuts don't back off. So the need for adjustment is less. Also the milder street cams and spring pressures require less adjustment. I would say to their 7500 rpm motors. That is not a mild build for a big block.

 

Get some info on Yella Terra rockers,they are from Australia.I've been using them for two seasons with zero problems.They never seem to need adjusting either.They also fit under stock valve covers.I'm running a solid roller with .730 lift.

 

gkull, it's not that they don't understand the concept, it's that they've gone to shaft rockers on stuff that most others use stud girdles on. They build race engines for a living, you'll see them in every division of NHRA. These guys are getting around 1050hp on 565's with Brodix 3-xtra cnc engines. They're one of the biggest Brodix dealers in the country and Brodix sent them the very first 6 of their new aluminum blocks for R&D. This is no fly-by-night shop. I've watched 'em dyno a LOT of 'em, they shut the run down at 7500. Most of the pump gas stuff they build runs hydraulic rollers for lower maintenance but they've done more than their share of high rpm solid roller street engines with .700 lift, no stud girdles and no problems. And I agree, that's no mild big block.
If I recall correctly, their head shop guy told me that around .725 - .750 lift is the point where you need to start thinking about either stud girdles or shaft rockers. Again, they understand the concept of stud girdles, just choose to spend the money to run shaft rockers at higher power levels. They're so much easier to work with that it doesn't make sense to fight a girdle on something that needs the valves run with any kind of frequency. And at 1000+hp, they need valves run after every run, not for adjustment but that's generally your first indication of valvetrain issues and can save you a ton of $$$ if you catch something just before it blows up.
What kind of heads where these that screwed up the stud holes and were they helicoiled from the factory like Brodix, AFR and Dart?
I'm not trying to get in some kind of pi$$ing contest, just saying that from what I've seen, at .700 or lower valve lift, they're not doing that much for you and at much over that, shafts are a much better investment and are probably even more stable than girdles. One other thing that's been studied in this comparison is how vibration and harmonics are transmitted throughout the valvetrain by a stud girdle, much like a gear drive does. Results show that the harmonics and vibration shortens valvetrain life and actually contributes to fatigue of parts as compared to shaft systems. Of course, on high end stuff, nobody is gonna run bare stud mounted stuff, so the study concentrated on girdles versus shaft systems only. If I can find the link, I'll post it.
Mr L88, I've heard and read a lot of good things about Yella Terras. I have a couple of sets of new Comp chromoly that I'll run as I've had great luck with 'em in the past.

 

They are pricey but crower makes a steel shaft system that would
sure be the ticket. How about the $700 jessel shaft system?
I'm with Gkull if you go for regular rockers I would not even consider
not running a stud girdle. Stud girdle cheap insurance.

 

 

Some above posters may not agree, but what do I know? Right! I have toys for the street, strip/street, and strictly strip. What this amounts to is for the street stay away from rollers and all the rest of the junk that goes with them. Those aftermarket pieces are for racing where the engine has constant maintenance. 600 HP engines run great, fast, and trouble free without them and on a basically stock valve train. And they can actually be safely driven anywhere as long as you can pass a gas station because of the limits of 7-8 MPG. Save your money for gas as you will need it and not worry about scratching a good paint job working over fenders repairing that roller stuff.

Whats even worse is calling a flat bed to carry the broken pieces back home from BFE.

 

My guys have had best luck with T&D. They're about the same cost as Jesels. I stopped by the shop today and they were fitting a set of Crowers, seemed pretty good.
My point is that most folks that run big solids or solid rollers have a substantial investment in their engines. When you add up the costs of rockers plus girdle, you're generally over halfway to a shaft system. I've helped put girdles on engines on stands and can't imagine trying to get one set up correctly on an engine in a tight engine bay. If you don't take the time to set it up right, you can actually cause stud deflection when everything is tightened up. I've watched guys set lash, then cuss when they rechecked it after retightening the girdles and lash had moved. Shafts are better, stronger, cheaper and consider this: if you bend a pushrod, break an inner spring, anything along those lines, the shaft rocker unbolts from the head, the defective piece is replaced and the shaft is put back on. No fighting a girdle and most times, lash doesn't change. Plus, you can run a shorter valve cover which makes maintenance much easier which was the point of this thread in the first place.
By the way, if you're getting .030 deflection on an ARP Pro Series stud, you either have something loose or a defective stud.
Whatever blows your skirt up, but IMHO, girdles are a pain in the butt and old school. It's kinda like the 2-bolt versus 4-bolt big block debate. IMHO, if you really need a 4-bolt block, you're better off in the long run going with a Bowtie or aftermarket block. Newer, better technology is available and affordable, I'll use it when I need it. I'll use the ARP Pro Series studs and my Comp chromoly rockers. If and when I break one, I'll honestly report it here first.
Fact of the matter is this and you'll be hard pressed to find a racer who won't back this up: once you go shaft rockers, you'll never go back and wonder what took you so long to start using them.

 

There is no argument shaft would be the way to go. the cost
difference between rockers and stud girdle vrs a TD or jessel
is not much. sounds like you already have the steel rockers, use
a girdle for some more insurance.

 

Neither am I. L88plus – I’m sorry you just didn’t tell me all the facts. Of course shaft rockers are much better than stud girdles which are better than no stud girdles.

If you really look at the benefits of stud girdles VS no stud girdles the marginal time in loosening 16 bolts like the Crane gold stud girdles is not a hassle.

T&D is a local company for me. I just have to draw the budget line somewhere. I also have not had a motor in my Vette that would exceed 7500 rpm

 

I agree shaft mount rockers are far far superior but they run about $1200 AM here and that is getting too pricy for some of us.
I picked up a used stud girdle for about $100 and that is more in line with what I feel comfortable with.
If I was going your route I would also go shaft mounted rockers, anytime.

 

gkull, sorry, didn't mean to look like I was trying to blind-side you. I understand and agree with budget issues and I tend to forget that I get some great deals on parts. Most of the engines I help with and watch dyno'd are race pieces run 1/4 mile at a time, not cross country, so I'm sure valvetrain stability and longevity issues are different.
Good point, Ironcross. .700 solid roller is a race engine, regardless of where you drive it!

 

I guess you can argue all the above the points all you want, but most of the time add-on accessories such as roller and girdle stuff is almost never used where it was intended {1/4 mile} and merely makes great bench racing material at a drive-in or cruise night somewhere sipping sodas. Maybe something stronger too. I got this, and I got that, mine goes rumpy rumpy better than your rumpy rumpy. Then along comes a pump jockey with his slick first generation Camaro sporting a stock 454 LS7 over the counter service package engine. {if 12.5-1 and 600 lift solid lifter cam} can be considered stock. Cackleing at around 850 RPM`s at idle ready to take on all comers with their roller stuff, but suddenly everything goes quiet while they all run and hide. Why is that?

 

Friend of mine drove his 63 nova on the street 5.13s tunell ram
roller. M21, Mr Gasket vertical gate. some of the 427 454 boys tried
him with slicks with cars like you are talking about, got there head handed to them. Now I'm not saying the nova is what most would
drive today on the street.