Well, I talked to the shop today and explained what I learned here and that I was concerned about lifter noise. They said they wanted to check on a few things and told me they would call back. I thought, oh great their going to think up some reason why these lifters are ok.

A few mintues later they called back and apologized for their previous tappet choice and to say that a set of high energy lifters were on the way - on the house! No questions asked, no balking, no arm twisting required! I guess this is just another reason to do business with a reputable shop. You may pay a bit more but they won't screw you over if something doesn't go as planned.

Hopefully the lifters arrive quickly, my motor build is on hold until they do. I did get a valve spring compressor and some lightweight springs this week though. As soon as they come in I'll be all set to figure the proper pushrod length.

 

Wow good news, I wonder if you would have had the same success with a ebay crate motor shipped from 2000 miles away ?

 

Hi Maine, It's me again, "way to go"! Now back to business, brand of cam?, part number of same cam?, spring pressures?, end play? Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Keep everything you're doing posted up here and maybe you'll get that unit done with zero issues down the road! It's not as easy/simple as you think building these things. Good Luck, Gary

 

You'll probably be returning those pro magnum 887-16 hyd roller lifters ... but ... if not ... I'd be interested in a deal.

 

Thanks Gary, I appreciate the feedback from you and all the other members here. It's nice to have guys out there helping those of us who are still a bit 'green'.

Now back to business. I didn't get the cam from Comp, it came from bullet so the part number probably won't mean much to you. I meant to call up Bullet today to find out what material the cam was ground from but never got to it. I'll have to do it tomorrow. I do know that I recieved a cam with with a 'hard steel gear' on it (that's how it's listed on my receipt from the shop). I've included a photo of the cam card below. The valve springs are AFR part #8000 which are 210# @ 1.9" and 515# at 1.25" with a max lift of 0.670". My gross lift will be 0.595"/0.581".



I set endplay to 0.006" using a dial indicator. If you care to look I've documented all my progress to date on my website at
http://71corvette.100free.com

and also in the following thread http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...1200385&page=4

Of course I welcome any advice or suggestions you guys may have. If I did something wrong I'd rather find out now!

Sorry, going back to the shop.

 

Hi Maine, you have to talk with some different folks than the ones you been listening to if you get my "drift". The "AFR" springs are "dead" wrong, I can't make out the retainer material either from the photos, but if they're Chrome-Moly's they will be an issue also down the road.

Without knowing the P/D height, if it's a 9.800" block you've got 9.8:1 for a C.R. This also assumes a 119 chamber, which by the way I would not install without cc'ing. I've got a "ton" of issues with the AFR stuff, won't use it myself right now. It works, but needs "attention". Highly over-rated AND over-priced. I'll only get involved if it's a customer request. I refuse to sell it to my "good" customers! That may change, as I've noticed some substantial "policy" corrections out there. The runner size is a good choice however.

The pipes at 2.125" will be too large, 2.000" will yield higher HP/Torque numbers, especially with that intake. The intake's no help, probably a "hood clearance" issue however being a "Vette". I like the cam specs, would have used different L/S, ICL. Later get some 1.8 rockers on the intakes. Hard to tell from photo too, but it looks like a "cast" blank. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. If it is a "cast" piece, the spring pressure AND the brand of oil you choose will be extremely important!!!! We have 2 years of following 2 specific BB units using Comp's -8 blanks. These are the cast one's also. So far we've not had a single issue with either unit, and I've been called
"crazy" for using them. We gave both customer's a full "unconditional" 2 year warranty against cam/lobe/lifter failure. Both are about past that point now.

 

Just noticed the spring specs. Dead wrong is about right!

You need about 150 lbs at installed hight with 330-370 lbs open. The springs you have are for a solid cam.

 

Well, isn't that just peachy.... I'm pretty surprsied since this shop has, from what I've heard, a pretty good reputation.

Anyway, before I get to I'm going to check the valve springs myself, I just need to get a valve spring tester. I pretty much knew last night that I was screwed when AFR told me what the spring pressures were. I'm not a pro by any means but even I knew they are rediculously high! I'll try to check on the retainers tonight when I get home, what material should they be?

A few weeks back I took some measurements of deck clearance and calculated my CR to be about 10.0:1. Also, I ended up switching intakes. I decided to go with a performer RPM intake with an L-88 hood so it should help things breath a bit easier. With that intake do you still think 2" headers would be the way to go?

At this point I'm second guessing just about everything I've been told... So much for getting the motor done by Mid July...

 

I just called Bullet and based on my Serial number the cam was ground from "8650 steel that was heat inducted" and has an everwear gear.

I'm scared to ask, but is that good or bad?

 

That's good news. Steel core is better than cast core and you have the cast distributor drive gear so you don't need a bronze distributor driven gear.

From what I hear Bullet is an excellent cam grinder. Still wouldn't hurt to degree it and double check.

 

Well, that's good news on the cam! Phew, glad to know I'm all set there.

So, I just had about a 20 minute conversation with one of the Tech guys from AFR - a pretty helpful guy. Anyway, I called to double check the numbers I was given last night since I was having a hard time believing those spring pressures. It turns out that the AFR lists the same spring under different part numbers with the difference being the springs setup height. The spring I have is a part #8000 with the pressures I previously listed if the setup height is 1.90". However, my setup height is 1.98" so the springs are considered part# 8002. What that means is my spring pressures are actually 170# seated and 445# open (at my max valve lift of 0.591").

The guy from AFR said that these are the springs they would recommend for a hydraulic roller cam and pointed out that the springs would "relax" over time and the pressures would come down a bit. He also cautioned that anything lighter would make valve float problematic and really limit RPM's since these AFR heads use pretty big valves (2.25" Int/1.88" Exh) which are relatively heavy.

It seemed to make sense to me. What do you guys think?

 

Call Comp and ask what they think of 170/445 lbs on their 854 lifters. It sounds too high to me, but I'm not a guru or anything. I'd think Comp would have the final say if their lifters can take pressures that high without bleeding down. I ran 140/330 for years and had no float at 6000 rpm.

 

Those springs rate sound ok ,it'll keep valve float away,hydraulic roller lifters are heavier than solid rollers so the'll be fine

 

Hi Maine, you need springs with a spring rate in the neighborhood of 350#/360# Lbs./In. Anything past that will lead to premature part failure (remember those "cast" rockers). As to the springs "relaxing" by any substantial numbers, I don't think so!!!!! If you "buy" that theory I have this nice bridge in Brooklyn I can cut you a great deal on!

"True" roller springs that AFR's claim to be, DO however have a shorter life span, and when they do go down, they'll go down fast and possibly break!

We're finding Comp's 928-16 springs down 10# or so after 5/6 years of use when used in conjunction with the 732-16 Titanium retainers. It's an "unbeatable" combo. Comp has been trying "twist" my arm to use the "new" Beehives, but I'm against these also at this time.

"Zwede" above's got it all pretty much straight! Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I also disagree with AFR's choice of exhaust valve part #1297 in many of their BB heads. That valve is some 25 grams heavier than the std. (1.880's) from Ferrea which increase spring life. As does the Titanium on top of the springs. One other "tip" for what it's worth, there's one 540 H.R. unit we have out has 5/16" pushrods inside and so far this has been one of the highest HP/Torque numbers we've delivered. Left at 732HP @ 6200 and 706 Ft.Lbs. @ 4600 with 9.75 C.R.

 

Called Comp today, 170/445 will definitely collapse those lifters. He pretty much agreed with your numbers for spring pressure. Looks like I'll be swapping out my valve springs too. I'm doing some more research now, but I'm open to suggestions for new valve springs, retainers, and valve locks that would work well with these AFR heads since I have no freakin idea what I have.

I'm pretty frustrated at this point since my entire project has been moving backwards lately - not to mention the added expense of having to swap parts and all the extra time it's going to take to 'get it right'. The worst part is that originally I was going to ask my shop for specs on everything they were providing me so that I could verify it myself before they ordered it but never did. In hindsight I really wish I'd followed my instincts. Hopefully someone else will learn from my mistakes....

 

I'll pass on the bridge, I'd just have nowhere to put it. I'd be interested in some Arizona beach front property though.

(Trying to keep my sense of humor despite the fustercluck I seem to have on my hands...)

 

(Trying to keep my sense of humor despite the fustercluck I seem to have on my hands...)[/QUOTE]

Hi Maine, look at this way, eventually this unit will "hit the highway" and most of the "bugs" will already be behind you. I put the part numbers above 928-16 springs/732-16 Titanium reatiners. Those will do the job for a number of years. They'll run about 300.00 for the setup.

Listen to me carefully, one of the original reasons for getting on board with these forum's is I just got totally "fed-up" with ALL the misleading info given out by 99% of the manufacturers. I'm convinced they "stick" anyone they can on the "tech" lines. Get the "bucks" and move forward. Without stepping on too many toes I can tell you behind the scenes deals that would literally "blow your mind", believe me.

I would recommend more people attempting their own assemblies at least have the unit fired on a dyno. If you encounter problems AFTER the installation ESPECIALLY in a Vette, you'll want to "torch" the vehicle. I've been there, not lately, but I've been there. We break in many units for other shops in the area and you'd be amazed of the issues before they leave. We had one unit a few years back from the old "RHS" when they were selling assemblies that was sent out with NO head gaskets. We started to fill the unit and had water pouring out from everywhere.

I want to give you another "tip" here, call the manufacturer, whoever it may be, and let him know you're not a "happy-camper". If they hear it from enough buyers they'll have to listen! I just sent back a set of
"custom" BBC aluminum rods, just try to send to back a custom piece. They screwed up, period. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Don't lose your sense of humor, nor your health if possible. The amount of "reputable" shops in this country is dwindling without a doubt. We have an 8-12 week backup still on delivery times. Really not normal for this time of year, most have their combos finished. Many I have here are from out of state! I've had a couple in here recently from Wisconsin of all places. A nationally known "big" builder.

 

Thanks Gary. I'm waiting to get those new lifters from the shop before I tell them about this whole valve spring issue... Don't want to push my luck until that's straightened out...

I definitely plan to have the motor dyno'd before putting it in the car. I want to get as many issues as possible resolved before this thing hits the street, plus find out what kind of numbers it's putting out! I'll be sure to double check that I remembered the head gaskets before firing it up.

Anyway... I noticed that the recommended install height for that spring is between 1.8-1.9", my current install height is 1.98" is that ok? They provide the spring rate but no relaxed height so how is the seat pressure calculated? Do the retainers change the install height?

Also, what's the difference between those titanium retainers and steel retainers? Is there that much of a difference, or is it just weight? The titanium retainers are a whopping $240 () compared to the steel retainers for $53. That's a lot of extra cash!

I'll also need to by shims to compensate for variations in spring height, right? What about guides? Am I going to need to replace those as well or will they work with the new springs? The ID of the comp spring is 0.795" compared to 0.725" on the AFR's.

What else will need to be swapped besides the springs and retainers? Can I use the valve locks that came with the heads?

 

Springs,retainers, cups, locks.

Hi Maine, the Titanium's are a "must" on any roller setup, hyd. or solid, you need to take advantage of that weight difference.

1-The cost of the ENTIRE package, seat locators, springs, Titanium retainers, but minus the locks (I believe you can use the present ones), runs 350.00. That's the "whole ball of wax". This guarantees the locators fit the guides, the springs fit the locators, the springs fit the retainers and they ALL fit the heads. No problem. There MAY be shims required but that has to be determined when assembled. This is easy, no issue. You just have to make sure if they're needed they go BELOW the locators, NOT under the springs themselves. The springs MUST sit directly on the locators.

2-Don't go by the spring pressures listed ANYWHERE, from ANYBODY, they have to be checked on an individual (set) basis. We test every set we send out, in the boxes, before the boxes are shipped. From doing so many of these units we have the part numbers down to a "science" and usually the correct amount of shims (most times no shims are necessary at all). The "books" are never correct with the height vs. pressure numbers as "listed". Your "installed height" should be fine with the correct pieces and the Titanium retainers will most likely not change that number. A 1.980" height would probably require a single .030" or possibly a single .040" shim under each locator.

3-The pressure to "aim" for is 145# closed and the open pressure is merely configured by the spring rate (350/360 Lbs./In.) vs. your full lift at the valve. In other words, at .600" lift you would see 340#, while if you had a .700" lift number, the same spring will give you the required 375# at that lift.

4-I'm assuming by the "guides" you mean the "cups" under the springs, not the valve guides. Those locators, "cups", are listed in the package above.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Keep pluggin' away!

 

Alright, so the new lifters came in this week and I'm back trying to figure pushrod length. I took a trip to the hardware store and came back with several springs of varying stiffness.

However, I noticed that when I use the very light springs and set the rocker to zero lash and then tighten the nut an additional 1/2 turn it opens the valve. If I try to use a stiffer spring it still causes the lifter to collapse when I turn the crank over.

Am I missing something here? Even the stiff spring I'm using isn't very "stiff". I can easily compress it with firm finger pressure. Any thoughts on modifying the lifter to act as a solid lifter for this procedure?