How can I tell a solid roller setup from a hyd setup?
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
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From: League City Tx
How can I tell a solid roller setup from a hyd setup?
Working on my dad's 69 BB, we are going to change the valve seals and turns out it has a roller cam and roller lifters. My question is, how can I tell if its a solid or hyd?
I tried pushing on the end of the push rod to see if I could squeeze the lifter any and its hard as a rock. I am going to pull the other valve cover off on thurs and see if I actually have a gap between the rocker and the stem thats measurable with a feeler gauge. My hunch is that its a solid but the valves were very quiet when it was running, no indication of a solid valvetrain.
THe valve springs were double springs with a damper, so basically a triple spring but the compressor compressed them easily so it doesn't appear to have mega spring pressure like a solid roller would. The springs compressed just as easy as my stock SB hyd springs.
Anyway I can tell what the lifters are without pulling the intake? I knew this thing ran pretty strong, now I am starting to see why.
I tried pushing on the end of the push rod to see if I could squeeze the lifter any and its hard as a rock. I am going to pull the other valve cover off on thurs and see if I actually have a gap between the rocker and the stem thats measurable with a feeler gauge. My hunch is that its a solid but the valves were very quiet when it was running, no indication of a solid valvetrain.
THe valve springs were double springs with a damper, so basically a triple spring but the compressor compressed them easily so it doesn't appear to have mega spring pressure like a solid roller would. The springs compressed just as easy as my stock SB hyd springs.
Anyway I can tell what the lifters are without pulling the intake? I knew this thing ran pretty strong, now I am starting to see why.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,874
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From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
shine a light down the oil holes in the heads.....you should have enough oil holes around on the head that you will be able to see the push rods and lifters.....maybe you can see the retaining clips that hydraulic lifters have...and i bet the solid lifters will have no play in them when the car is off
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2006
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Originally Posted by ajrothm
Working on my dad's 69 BB, we are going to change the valve seals and turns out it has a roller cam and roller lifters. My question is, how can I tell if its a solid or hyd?
I tried pushing on the end of the push rod to see if I could squeeze the lifter any and its hard as a rock. I am going to pull the other valve cover off on thurs and see if I actually have a gap between the rocker and the stem thats measurable with a feeler gauge. My hunch is that its a solid but the valves were very quiet when it was running, no indication of a solid valvetrain.
THe valve springs were double springs with a damper, so basically a triple spring but the compressor compressed them easily so it doesn't appear to have mega spring pressure like a solid roller would. The springs compressed just as easy as my stock SB hyd springs.
Anyway I can tell what the lifters are without pulling the intake? I knew this thing ran pretty strong, now I am starting to see why.
I tried pushing on the end of the push rod to see if I could squeeze the lifter any and its hard as a rock. I am going to pull the other valve cover off on thurs and see if I actually have a gap between the rocker and the stem thats measurable with a feeler gauge. My hunch is that its a solid but the valves were very quiet when it was running, no indication of a solid valvetrain.
THe valve springs were double springs with a damper, so basically a triple spring but the compressor compressed them easily so it doesn't appear to have mega spring pressure like a solid roller would. The springs compressed just as easy as my stock SB hyd springs.
Anyway I can tell what the lifters are without pulling the intake? I knew this thing ran pretty strong, now I am starting to see why.
I know I heard you say when you drove your dads car you were not very impressed called it a low 14 second car.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,752
Likes: 4
From: Austin Texas
[QUOTE=bobs77vet]shine a light down the oil holes in the heads.....you should have enough oil holes around on the head that you will be able to see the push rods and lifters.....maybe you can see the retaining clips that hydraulic lifters have...and i bet the solid lifters will have no play in them when the car is off[/QUOTE]
I'll take that bet...
and I'll bet if the're hydraulics they won't have play.
I'll take that bet...
and I'll bet if the're hydraulics they won't have play.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,874
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From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
[QUOTE=big_G]
seems like when i'm adjusting the hydraulic valves on some of the other clyinders the rocker arms have lots of play in them...i figured this was from bleeding down of the hydraulic lifters....so i was thinking that the solid lifters even with the las h in them would be tighter...
Originally Posted by bobs77vet
...and i bet the solid lifters will have no play in them when the car is off[/QUOTE]
I'll take that bet... and I'll bet if the're hydraulics they won't have play.
I'll take that bet...
and I'll bet if the're hydraulics they won't have play.seems like when i'm adjusting the hydraulic valves on some of the other clyinders the rocker arms have lots of play in them...i figured this was from bleeding down of the hydraulic lifters....so i was thinking that the solid lifters even with the las h in them would be tighter...
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,752
Likes: 4
From: Austin Texas
True, before the hyd. lifters get pumped up for the first time, or if at max lift for some time, there will be a lot of plunger travel. Once the're filled, they are basically a no-lash solid lifter.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,874
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From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
Originally Posted by big_G
True, before the hyd. lifters get pumped up for the first time, or if at max lift for some time, there will be a lot of plunger travel. Once the're filled, they are basically a no-lash solid lifter.
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Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
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From: League City Tx
Usually you like barely squish a hyd lifter with the pushrod if the engine is not running. not much but a little. This one I can not push the lifter in at all.
Motorhead, you can see the rollers on the lifters if you are looking at the lifters from the adjacent side of the block, plus the lifters have the link plates connecting the lifters in pairs to prevent them from spinning in the bores. When I look down the lifter, the lifter cup is pretty far down in the lifters but does not appear to have the retainer ring/clip. From what I can tell, it just has the bowl in the plunger for the push rod to sit in.
LIttle Mouse, the day I drove it I did not really rev it hard, just hit it in 3rd/4th gear. Felt torquey but...not all that. Then on our way home the other night I was in my 71 and he in this one, we dropped em on the freeway, him in 4th, me in 2nd and he just walked away instantly from the hit.. I mean it feels slow to me because I am used to my TA but I am thinking its faster then I thought. Once I do the seals, reassemble and set the valves(how ever I decide to do them) I am going to personally pressure test this thing and see what it does.
Motorhead, you can see the rollers on the lifters if you are looking at the lifters from the adjacent side of the block, plus the lifters have the link plates connecting the lifters in pairs to prevent them from spinning in the bores. When I look down the lifter, the lifter cup is pretty far down in the lifters but does not appear to have the retainer ring/clip. From what I can tell, it just has the bowl in the plunger for the push rod to sit in.
LIttle Mouse, the day I drove it I did not really rev it hard, just hit it in 3rd/4th gear. Felt torquey but...not all that. Then on our way home the other night I was in my 71 and he in this one, we dropped em on the freeway, him in 4th, me in 2nd and he just walked away instantly from the hit.. I mean it feels slow to me because I am used to my TA but I am thinking its faster then I thought. Once I do the seals, reassemble and set the valves(how ever I decide to do them) I am going to personally pressure test this thing and see what it does.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Wildwood IL
Don't "most" solid rollers have a oil band near the bottom that is a smaller diameter than the rest of the lifter body....and hydraulic roller lifter bodies have the same diameter????
Eddie
Eddie
Race Director
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From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
if you have the valve covers off and rotate the engine by hand through one full firing order cycle the hydraulic lifters will have bled down and the rocker arms will have lots of movement in them if it has hydraulic lifters....if it has solid lifters i would think the movement would never be greater then the lash they were adjusted to
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
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From: League City Tx
Ed not sure, these lifters are still in the motor and the intake is still on. I am just changing valve seals and realized I got to make sure what the lifters are so I can set the valves.
My dad just called and said he pulled the other valve cover and there is enough slack in some of the rockers(at TDC I'm sure) that he can get feeler gauges under them. Normally a HYD lifter when at TDC, the rockers have some side to side play but not an actual clearance between the rocker and the valve stem. I am going to go by there during the day tomorrow and bring my feelers.
Anyone know what to set solid roller lifter lash to? No idea what the cam is.
My dad just called and said he pulled the other valve cover and there is enough slack in some of the rockers(at TDC I'm sure) that he can get feeler gauges under them. Normally a HYD lifter when at TDC, the rockers have some side to side play but not an actual clearance between the rocker and the valve stem. I am going to go by there during the day tomorrow and bring my feelers.
Anyone know what to set solid roller lifter lash to? No idea what the cam is.
Race Director
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From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
what is he saying....is it that the other rocker arms other then then cylinder at TDC has movement in them...if so thats typical of a hydrualic set up since the lifters have bled down...if they were solid lifters at least some of the other valves should be in some state of compression
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
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From: League City Tx
He said 5 out of the 8 had slack in them on the right bank(2,4,6,8)
I will run by there tomorrow with my feeler gauges and see what I can find.. It has full roller rockers so they don't have any side to side play like stock rockers so it will be hard to "feel" the slack.
I will probably set the valves assuming they are solids and start it up and see if I have a lot of clacking, if not, I guess its right. The rockers were really quiet before though, thats why I don't think its a solid. Normally you always hear valve train noise/clatter with solids
I will run by there tomorrow with my feeler gauges and see what I can find.. It has full roller rockers so they don't have any side to side play like stock rockers so it will be hard to "feel" the slack.
I will probably set the valves assuming they are solids and start it up and see if I have a lot of clacking, if not, I guess its right. The rockers were really quiet before though, thats why I don't think its a solid. Normally you always hear valve train noise/clatter with solids
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Arlington Va Current ride 04 vert, previous vettes: 69 vert, 77 resto mod
if 5 out of 8 are loose .....and the car was quiet before i think you have hydraulic valves.....
if 5 out of 8 are loose and its clacking away i think you have soild lifters
so sounds like hydraulic lifters to me
if 5 out of 8 are loose and its clacking away i think you have soild lifters
so sounds like hydraulic lifters to me
Race Director
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From: Who says "Nothing is impossible" ? I've been doing nothing for years.
You know you have a solid roller motor when it's running, trust me, you can hear it, lots of little wheels clanking around, music to my ears
Race Director
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From: Florida
Originally Posted by ajrothm
He said 5 out of the 8 had slack in them on the right bank(2,4,6,8).......
I will probably set the valves assuming they are solids and start it up and see if I have a lot of clacking, if not, I guess its right. The rockers were really quiet before though, thats why I don't think its a solid. Normally you always hear valve train noise/clatter with solids
I will probably set the valves assuming they are solids and start it up and see if I have a lot of clacking, if not, I guess its right. The rockers were really quiet before though, thats why I don't think its a solid. Normally you always hear valve train noise/clatter with solids
From what I get out of your description, it sounds like they may be solids. Hydraulics usually don't have play because they are always loaded and if they bleed off that quickly, then they are probably well worn. Solids if set properly are not necessarily noisy either.
You can also put the right feeler in, as you turn the motor over with the starter and the coil wire off. If it goes in it shouldn't be hydraulic. If they are hydraulic, they will pump up right away, considering the engine was so quiet running.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 866
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From: Columbus Ohio
ok heres an easy way. Hydraulics rpm range is usually like wat?..5500RPM? If u can rev up or get ur rpm's higher than that than u dont have a hydraulic, lol. Just thought id give u a lil fun way to check.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,672
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From: New Cumberland PA
Originally Posted by slowup
ok heres an easy way. Hydraulics rpm range is usually like wat?..5500RPM? If u can rev up or get ur rpm's higher than that than u dont have a hydraulic, lol. Just thought id give u a lil fun way to check.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9,993
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From: League City Tx
HAHA, the point is, I got to get it back together so I can start it and rev it to 7000rpms...LOL
Ya the valve train was really quiet to be honest with you but with the header noise and side pipes, maybe I just wasn't listening close enough. I will go by there today and take a look and report back from what I find on the right bank that the rockers are still installed on.
Ya the valve train was really quiet to be honest with you but with the header noise and side pipes, maybe I just wasn't listening close enough. I will go by there today and take a look and report back from what I find on the right bank that the rockers are still installed on.